Topic: Surprise surprise, Sweden thinks it should have acted earlier
Anonymous A started this discussion 6 years ago #98,284
Oh, oh you could have done like all your neighbors around you? No shit Sweden.
Anonymous B joined in and replied with this 6 years ago, 8 minutes later[^] [v] #1,108,833
Those Swedes sure are some psychotic fucktards.
dreamworks joined in and replied with this 6 years ago, 6 minutes later, 14 minutes after the original post[^] [v] #1,108,839
u better not be usamerican op
Erik !AltRitexT6 joined in and replied with this 6 years ago, 24 minutes later, 39 minutes after the original post[^] [v] #1,108,845
It's funny how the UK are ahead of the curve but everyone still have to pile on us and tell us how badly we're doing
dreamworks replied with this 6 years ago, 4 minutes later, 44 minutes after the original post[^] [v] #1,108,846
Erik !jzYkdX7lIw joined in and replied with this 6 years ago, 4 minutes later, 48 minutes after the original post[^] [v] #1,108,848
@previous (dreamworks)
We're doing much better than france and Germany. Everyone was saying we're 2 weeks behind Italy but it turns out that was incorrect
We're doing much better than france and Germany. Everyone was saying we're 2 weeks behind Italy but it turns out that was incorrect
dreamworks replied with this 6 years ago, 3 minutes later, 52 minutes after the original post[^] [v] #1,108,852
dreamworks double-posted this 6 years ago, 17 seconds later, 52 minutes after the original post[^] [v] #1,108,853
and went in to quarantine way before the uk
Erik !jzYkdX7lIw replied with this 6 years ago, 3 minutes later, 55 minutes after the original post[^] [v] #1,108,856
@1,108,852 (dreamworks)
Because they measure it differently. I'm not saying we're better than everyone, just better than most dispite he criticism
Because they measure it differently. I'm not saying we're better than everyone, just better than most dispite he criticism
(Edited 43 seconds later.)
dreamworks replied with this 6 years ago, 5 minutes later, 1 hour after the original post[^] [v] #1,108,858
@previous (Erik !jzYkdX7lIw)
the uk isnt better than most though they are #8 in infections worldwide
how does the way germany measures death different from how the uk does it?
the uk isnt better than most though they are #8 in infections worldwide
how does the way germany measures death different from how the uk does it?
jodi !ariasXXmaE joined in and replied with this 6 years ago, 3 hours later, 4 hours after the original post[^] [v] #1,108,915
Erik !AltRitexT6 replied with this 6 years ago, 1 minute later, 4 hours after the original post[^] [v] #1,108,916
@previous (jodi !ariasXXmaE)
Don't be a nerd. They measure CCV deaths if you die in hospital but not if you die at home or if the death was more likely to do with an underlying health issue than the actual CCV in your lungs
Don't be a nerd. They measure CCV deaths if you die in hospital but not if you die at home or if the death was more likely to do with an underlying health issue than the actual CCV in your lungs
Anonymous G joined in and replied with this 6 years ago, 5 hours later, 9 hours after the original post[^] [v] #1,109,008
@previous (Erik !AltRitexT6)
Is that a real fact that can be verified somewhere or is that just something you heard someone say?
Is that a real fact that can be verified somewhere or is that just something you heard someone say?
Meta !Sober//iZs joined in and replied with this 6 years ago, 4 minutes later, 9 hours after the original post[^] [v] #1,109,011
I mean basically every single country is doing the hand-wringing "Oh if only we had done X, Y, and Z" thing right now. People are giving Trump shit because we didn't have 50 million billion ventilators in reserve but who could have predicted this???
Anonymous G replied with this 6 years ago, 9 minutes later, 9 hours after the original post[^] [v] #1,109,018
@previous (Meta !Sober//iZs)
We have government agencies whose job is to literally predict shit like this and prepare for it.
We have government agencies whose job is to literally predict shit like this and prepare for it.
Anonymous I joined in and replied with this 6 years ago, 13 minutes later, 10 hours after the original post[^] [v] #1,109,025
@previous (G)
Yeah, but they are using the same prediction models as global warming. So the predictions are always wrong by a couple of orders of magnitude.
Yeah, but they are using the same prediction models as global warming. So the predictions are always wrong by a couple of orders of magnitude.
Meta !Sober//iZs replied with this 6 years ago, 9 minutes later, 10 hours after the original post[^] [v] #1,109,031
@1,109,018 (G)
When did Trump sell off and liquidate the millions of ventilators the Obama administration left? ?
When did Trump sell off and liquidate the millions of ventilators the Obama administration left? ?
Anonymous A (OP) replied with this 6 years ago, 17 minutes later, 10 hours after the original post[^] [v] #1,109,041
@1,109,011 (Meta !Sober//iZs)
> who could have predicted this???
lots of people predicted this shit. I think as early as late January, there was people pretty much preditcting.
> who could have predicted this???
lots of people predicted this shit. I think as early as late January, there was people pretty much preditcting.
Anonymous I replied with this 6 years ago, 9 minutes later, 10 hours after the original post[^] [v] #1,109,046
Anonymous A (OP) replied with this 6 years ago, 2 minutes later, 10 hours after the original post[^] [v] #1,109,048
Anonymous J joined in and replied with this 6 years ago, 2 minutes later, 10 hours after the original post[^] [v] #1,109,050
SWEDEN
Ha Ha..
Ha Ha..
Anonymous G replied with this 6 years ago, 2 minutes later, 10 hours after the original post[^] [v] #1,109,051
@1,109,031 (Meta !Sober//iZs)
It's not really an issue of selling off ventilators or cutting budgets or comparing Trump to Obama. It's just the "who could have predicted this?" excuse that keeps popping up. There are people at the CDC whose job it is to think about how the US should handle disease outbreaks.
Wouldn't it seem odd if a war with Iran or China broke out and the US military didn't have a plan? Wouldn't it be shocking to learn that no one had run simulations of hundreds of wartime scenarios to assess the best strategy? If the Joint Chiefs just shrugged and asked how they were supposed to have predicted something like this?
It's completely possible that even with an early response and a solid plan that the US would have been caught off guard by the scope of the problem. But taking reasonable measures that turn out to be inadequate is a different situation than being caught flat-footed and complaining that no one could have known.
It's not really an issue of selling off ventilators or cutting budgets or comparing Trump to Obama. It's just the "who could have predicted this?" excuse that keeps popping up. There are people at the CDC whose job it is to think about how the US should handle disease outbreaks.
Wouldn't it seem odd if a war with Iran or China broke out and the US military didn't have a plan? Wouldn't it be shocking to learn that no one had run simulations of hundreds of wartime scenarios to assess the best strategy? If the Joint Chiefs just shrugged and asked how they were supposed to have predicted something like this?
It's completely possible that even with an early response and a solid plan that the US would have been caught off guard by the scope of the problem. But taking reasonable measures that turn out to be inadequate is a different situation than being caught flat-footed and complaining that no one could have known.
Anonymous J replied with this 6 years ago, 1 minute later, 10 hours after the original post[^] [v] #1,109,053
Anonymous I replied with this 6 years ago, 3 minutes later, 10 hours after the original post[^] [v] #1,109,054
Anonymous G replied with this 6 years ago, 2 minutes later, 11 hours after the original post[^] [v] #1,109,058
@1,109,053 (J)
> A mental wizard like you...should have been in charge.
No, you should probably pick a health professional for that role.
> A mental wizard like you...should have been in charge.
No, you should probably pick a health professional for that role.
Anonymous I replied with this 6 years ago, 4 minutes later, 11 hours after the original post[^] [v] #1,109,065
@previous (G)
Nevada's chief medical officer is not licensed to practice medicine in USAmerica. Listen to that guy
Nevada's chief medical officer is not licensed to practice medicine in USAmerica. Listen to that guy
Meta !Sober//iZs replied with this 6 years ago, 1 day later, 2 days after the original post[^] [v] #1,109,846
@1,109,051 (G)
> It's not really an issue of selling off ventilators or cutting budgets or comparing Trump to Obama. It's just the "who could have predicted this?" excuse that keeps popping up. There are people at the CDC whose job it is to think about how the US should handle disease outbreaks.
>
> Wouldn't it seem odd if a war with Iran or China broke out and the US military didn't have a plan? Wouldn't it be shocking to learn that no one had run simulations of hundreds of wartime scenarios to assess the best strategy? If the Joint Chiefs just shrugged and asked how they were supposed to have predicted something like this?
I think the main difference is that threat seems a lot more "real". We can see Iran saber-rattling, but we can't see when some tiny virus particle jumps from a bat to a human in the Wuhan wet market. We know roughly what Iran's capabilities are, so we can plan around them (having an incredibly bloated military budget the size of the rest of the world combined helps too).
> It's completely possible that even with an early response and a solid plan that the US would have been caught off guard by the scope of the problem. But taking reasonable measures that turn out to be inadequate is a different situation than being caught flat-footed and complaining that no one could have known.
I honestly don't know enough about pandemic prevention to have an opinion on the US response. I couldn't even begin to say "we should have done X instead of Y" or "we should have locked down by February" or whatever. We seem to be not too bad by developed Western country standards so I'm guessing we didn't do anything uniquely, horribly, bad but we don't seem to have excelled either.
A lot of this seems complicated by the Federal/State division of authority. This is something a lot of the Asian and European countries don't have. Imagine if our military was like that - if when we went to war we sent out 50 different state armies (and perhaps some states deciding not to even participate in the war at all), with different commands, equipment, communication, training, etc, in addition to a smaller Federal armed forces. It would be absolutely insane. Obviously pandemics are something the founders didn't think about in 1789. Not that it would have mattered if they did, because there was basically no medical care to speak of back then.
What interests me is what happens to the ventilators when this crisis is over? From what I can gather, in normal times we have about 62,000 ventilators in the US and this is perfectly adequate under normal non-pandemic conditions. So now we're ramping up production so we'll have, say, 100,000 additional ventilators leaving us with almost 3 times what we normally need. So what happens to those extra 100,000 machines? Do we just warehouse them? It may be 10, 20, 50 years before we have another respiratory pandemic. In my experience machinery doesn't like to sit fallow for a long time. Rubber gaskets rot, stuff gets rusty, plastic gets brittle, oil dries up and turns into varnish, etc. Do we donate them to poor countries? Sell them off for pennies on the dollar? What happens to these extra ventilators?
> It's not really an issue of selling off ventilators or cutting budgets or comparing Trump to Obama. It's just the "who could have predicted this?" excuse that keeps popping up. There are people at the CDC whose job it is to think about how the US should handle disease outbreaks.
>
> Wouldn't it seem odd if a war with Iran or China broke out and the US military didn't have a plan? Wouldn't it be shocking to learn that no one had run simulations of hundreds of wartime scenarios to assess the best strategy? If the Joint Chiefs just shrugged and asked how they were supposed to have predicted something like this?
I think the main difference is that threat seems a lot more "real". We can see Iran saber-rattling, but we can't see when some tiny virus particle jumps from a bat to a human in the Wuhan wet market. We know roughly what Iran's capabilities are, so we can plan around them (having an incredibly bloated military budget the size of the rest of the world combined helps too).
> It's completely possible that even with an early response and a solid plan that the US would have been caught off guard by the scope of the problem. But taking reasonable measures that turn out to be inadequate is a different situation than being caught flat-footed and complaining that no one could have known.
I honestly don't know enough about pandemic prevention to have an opinion on the US response. I couldn't even begin to say "we should have done X instead of Y" or "we should have locked down by February" or whatever. We seem to be not too bad by developed Western country standards so I'm guessing we didn't do anything uniquely, horribly, bad but we don't seem to have excelled either.
A lot of this seems complicated by the Federal/State division of authority. This is something a lot of the Asian and European countries don't have. Imagine if our military was like that - if when we went to war we sent out 50 different state armies (and perhaps some states deciding not to even participate in the war at all), with different commands, equipment, communication, training, etc, in addition to a smaller Federal armed forces. It would be absolutely insane. Obviously pandemics are something the founders didn't think about in 1789. Not that it would have mattered if they did, because there was basically no medical care to speak of back then.
What interests me is what happens to the ventilators when this crisis is over? From what I can gather, in normal times we have about 62,000 ventilators in the US and this is perfectly adequate under normal non-pandemic conditions. So now we're ramping up production so we'll have, say, 100,000 additional ventilators leaving us with almost 3 times what we normally need. So what happens to those extra 100,000 machines? Do we just warehouse them? It may be 10, 20, 50 years before we have another respiratory pandemic. In my experience machinery doesn't like to sit fallow for a long time. Rubber gaskets rot, stuff gets rusty, plastic gets brittle, oil dries up and turns into varnish, etc. Do we donate them to poor countries? Sell them off for pennies on the dollar? What happens to these extra ventilators?
chill dog !!81dzJNNYL joined in and replied with this 6 years ago, 5 hours later, 2 days after the original post[^] [v] #1,110,046
@previous (Meta !Sober//iZs)
The thing is that the US had a federal pandemic response team which Trump dismantled. And he's blaming state governors for not responding better even though they have no federal support. And he's told his workers to snub requests from governors who haven't been polite enough to him - that's the one action i find unforgivable. You can't chalk that last one up to inexperience or incompetence, that's actively malicious.
As for the extra medical supplies, sure some bits will have to be replaced or repaired over time but you can still stockpile them. Finland stockpiled medical supplies following the cold war, which is why they're not worried now.
The thing is that the US had a federal pandemic response team which Trump dismantled. And he's blaming state governors for not responding better even though they have no federal support. And he's told his workers to snub requests from governors who haven't been polite enough to him - that's the one action i find unforgivable. You can't chalk that last one up to inexperience or incompetence, that's actively malicious.
As for the extra medical supplies, sure some bits will have to be replaced or repaired over time but you can still stockpile them. Finland stockpiled medical supplies following the cold war, which is why they're not worried now.
(Edited 4 minutes later.)
Meta !Sober//iZs replied with this 6 years ago, 23 minutes later, 2 days after the original post[^] [v] #1,110,078
@previous (chill dog !!81dzJNNYL)
> The thing is that the US had a federal pandemic response team which Trump dismantled.
It was a reorganization, not a dismantling:
https://www.washingtonpost.com/opinions/2020/03/16/no-white-house-didnt-dissolve-its-pandemic-response-office/
https://www.reuters.com/article/uk-factcheck-trump-fired-pandemic-team/partly-false-claim-trump-fired-pandemic-response-team-in-2018-idUSKBN21C32M
So we still had people doing pandemic response, that never stopped or ended in any way.
> Finland stockpiled medical supplies
Right, they've got masks and PPE but can a ventilator sit in a warehouse for 30 years, and still reliably work?
> The thing is that the US had a federal pandemic response team which Trump dismantled.
It was a reorganization, not a dismantling:
https://www.washingtonpost.com/opinions/2020/03/16/no-white-house-didnt-dissolve-its-pandemic-response-office/
https://www.reuters.com/article/uk-factcheck-trump-fired-pandemic-team/partly-false-claim-trump-fired-pandemic-response-team-in-2018-idUSKBN21C32M
So we still had people doing pandemic response, that never stopped or ended in any way.
> Finland stockpiled medical supplies
Right, they've got masks and PPE but can a ventilator sit in a warehouse for 30 years, and still reliably work?
chill dog !!81dzJNNYL replied with this 6 years ago, 37 minutes later, 2 days after the original post[^] [v] #1,110,095
@previous (Meta !Sober//iZs)
It's still much easier to replace rubber o-rings and change the oil than it is to build a ventilator from scratch.
It's still much easier to replace rubber o-rings and change the oil than it is to build a ventilator from scratch.
Anonymous G replied with this 6 years ago, 5 hours later, 2 days after the original post[^] [v] #1,110,151
@1,109,846 (Meta !Sober//iZs)
> What interests me is what happens to the ventilators when this crisis is over?
That is an interesting question. I wish I knew more about the logistics of government stockpiles. I assume various government agencies already keep emergency stockpiles of supplies and equipment that has to be maintained - whether it's ammo, uniforms, and tanks for the military or fresh water, MREs, and first aid kits for the nuke bunkers. I had always imagined that something like that would be folded into the annual budget. FEMA likely has a supply of pumps and generators that would require the same kind of routine replacement cycle as ventilators might. I would guess that keeping a supply of ventilators wouldn't be any more expensive or onerous than the stuff we already stockpile.
> A lot of this seems complicated by the Federal/State division of authority.
It certainly seems that way. I think some peoples' anger at the situation comes from watching state governments clash with the federal government in a time where they should be working together. This would be a great time to have a strong leader with a solid plan who was coordinating efforts from the top to get all the states working together.
> What interests me is what happens to the ventilators when this crisis is over?
That is an interesting question. I wish I knew more about the logistics of government stockpiles. I assume various government agencies already keep emergency stockpiles of supplies and equipment that has to be maintained - whether it's ammo, uniforms, and tanks for the military or fresh water, MREs, and first aid kits for the nuke bunkers. I had always imagined that something like that would be folded into the annual budget. FEMA likely has a supply of pumps and generators that would require the same kind of routine replacement cycle as ventilators might. I would guess that keeping a supply of ventilators wouldn't be any more expensive or onerous than the stuff we already stockpile.
> A lot of this seems complicated by the Federal/State division of authority.
It certainly seems that way. I think some peoples' anger at the situation comes from watching state governments clash with the federal government in a time where they should be working together. This would be a great time to have a strong leader with a solid plan who was coordinating efforts from the top to get all the states working together.