Topic: Hatred and anger as a stabilizing force?
Anonymous A started this discussion 6 years ago #94,998
It is better to have a narrative of any kind rather than no narrative, agree? It's like what they say about the certain schizophrenics, they say a improvement in symptoms can be observed when there's a paranoid shift in their behavior. I believe it is because a false narrative is better than no narrative.
(Edited 27 seconds later.)
Anonymous B joined in and replied with this 6 years ago, 3 minutes later[^] [v] #1,073,115
Fear is the path to the dark side. Fear leads to anger. Anger leads to hate. Hate leads to suffering.
Anonymous C joined in and replied with this 6 years ago, 20 minutes later, 23 minutes after the original post[^] [v] #1,073,131
> It is better to have a narrative of any kind rather than no narrative
Is this some kind of Dunning–Kruger apologetic? Saying "I'd rather be certain about something in my ignorance than open to any new information" isn't a worthy trait. It's just being proud of your ignorance. I know it feels nice to be sure of yourself, but at some point you have to admit that you're just making up stories.
It's all well and good for children to play at being a hero slaying dragons or defeating villains, but you can't spend your whole life living out childish fantasies. At some point you have to go test your ideas against reality. All narratives aren't equally true just by virtue of being narratives. You should strive to tell yourself true stories that stand the test of objective reality so you can step out of your imagination and into a life where you can interact with reality.
Is this some kind of Dunning–Kruger apologetic? Saying "I'd rather be certain about something in my ignorance than open to any new information" isn't a worthy trait. It's just being proud of your ignorance. I know it feels nice to be sure of yourself, but at some point you have to admit that you're just making up stories.
It's all well and good for children to play at being a hero slaying dragons or defeating villains, but you can't spend your whole life living out childish fantasies. At some point you have to go test your ideas against reality. All narratives aren't equally true just by virtue of being narratives. You should strive to tell yourself true stories that stand the test of objective reality so you can step out of your imagination and into a life where you can interact with reality.
Anonymous A (OP) replied with this 6 years ago, 17 minutes later, 41 minutes after the original post[^] [v] #1,073,135
@previous (C)
Which side do you think wins in this blessed reality of yours that you mention? The side that doesn't know which direction to go the entire time, or the side that knows which direction although wrongfully?
I know it might seem crazy to willfully believe in lies, to believe in dragons and villains while playing hero. It is far less crazy though, far less crazy than just laying around and accepting the ways things are, i mean oh my God, there's a camp in north korea starving children to death and the truth is that this camp shouldn't exist despite the reality being that it does exist. Don't let reality tell you what should or shouldn't be, how can you not understand? How dense are you!?
Which side do you think wins in this blessed reality of yours that you mention? The side that doesn't know which direction to go the entire time, or the side that knows which direction although wrongfully?
I know it might seem crazy to willfully believe in lies, to believe in dragons and villains while playing hero. It is far less crazy though, far less crazy than just laying around and accepting the ways things are, i mean oh my God, there's a camp in north korea starving children to death and the truth is that this camp shouldn't exist despite the reality being that it does exist. Don't let reality tell you what should or shouldn't be, how can you not understand? How dense are you!?
Anonymous C replied with this 6 years ago, 30 minutes later, 1 hour after the original post[^] [v] #1,073,144
@previous (A)
That kind of thinking reminds of a slow kid at the back of a math class who has only figured out that he is supposed to shout out numbers when he is called on by the teacher. He spends his time wondering why people laugh when he says his numbers to the teacher and thinking the numbers he makes up are just as good as any other numbers the other kids say.
> The side that doesn't know which direction to go the entire time, or the side that knows which direction although wrongfully?
That's a bit of a bit of a false dichotomy isn't it? Are you only capable of thinking in cartoonishly absurd extremes?
That kind of thinking reminds of a slow kid at the back of a math class who has only figured out that he is supposed to shout out numbers when he is called on by the teacher. He spends his time wondering why people laugh when he says his numbers to the teacher and thinking the numbers he makes up are just as good as any other numbers the other kids say.
> The side that doesn't know which direction to go the entire time, or the side that knows which direction although wrongfully?
That's a bit of a bit of a false dichotomy isn't it? Are you only capable of thinking in cartoonishly absurd extremes?
Anonymous A (OP) replied with this 6 years ago, 5 minutes later, 1 hour after the original post[^] [v] #1,073,145
@previous (C)
Oh come on. This is you going soft on me and you know it, there's nothing there that harms my ego, you shout "child!" and "cartoonish!" if you have a point then please make it for this stupid cartoonish child of yours, otherwise it's just name calling.
Oh come on. This is you going soft on me and you know it, there's nothing there that harms my ego, you shout "child!" and "cartoonish!" if you have a point then please make it for this stupid cartoonish child of yours, otherwise it's just name calling.
Anonymous C replied with this 6 years ago, 58 minutes later, 2 hours after the original post[^] [v] #1,073,167
@previous (A)
Well, I'm not going to say that making up an answer just to say you have one is some kind of great solution. It isn't. It sounds like you're choosing to defend vanity in fear of admitting ignorance. Ignorance should inspire curiosity, not a retreat into fantasy. I'm sorry if it hurts that I call that a childish solution, but it really seems like the kind of thing that someone does when they are afraid of the world.
Not all narratives are created equal. Just making up a narrative doesn't make yours just as good as any other. Defending it doesn't make you brave or wise. Staking yourself to a narrative and closing your eyes to any possibility of it being wrong is willfully choosing to live in ignorance and fantasy.
Well, I'm not going to say that making up an answer just to say you have one is some kind of great solution. It isn't. It sounds like you're choosing to defend vanity in fear of admitting ignorance. Ignorance should inspire curiosity, not a retreat into fantasy. I'm sorry if it hurts that I call that a childish solution, but it really seems like the kind of thing that someone does when they are afraid of the world.
Not all narratives are created equal. Just making up a narrative doesn't make yours just as good as any other. Defending it doesn't make you brave or wise. Staking yourself to a narrative and closing your eyes to any possibility of it being wrong is willfully choosing to live in ignorance and fantasy.
Anonymous A (OP) replied with this 6 years ago, 21 minutes later, 2 hours after the original post[^] [v] #1,073,174
@previous (C)
I certainly see your point. I can imagine situations where my defense wouldn't cut it, the defense of having a answer rather than none. Though, can't you see any situations where it would be preferable to have a answer rather than no answer? Our place in the world is uncertain and who we are and where we are going is also uncertain. Truly it is best to know these things but maybe the beginning of knowing it is revealing it and to reveal it you must test it out. So you believe in a answer simply because you have none, and then you test it out and find out the real answer.
I certainly see your point. I can imagine situations where my defense wouldn't cut it, the defense of having a answer rather than none. Though, can't you see any situations where it would be preferable to have a answer rather than no answer? Our place in the world is uncertain and who we are and where we are going is also uncertain. Truly it is best to know these things but maybe the beginning of knowing it is revealing it and to reveal it you must test it out. So you believe in a answer simply because you have none, and then you test it out and find out the real answer.
Anonymous C replied with this 6 years ago, 1 hour later, 3 hours after the original post[^] [v] #1,073,193
@previous (A)
Sure, sometimes we have to make guesses and muddle through. I would rather be honest with myself about it and admit that I'm just guessing about things. I'd rather remain open to making other, different guesses in the future. I just don't see much value in false confidence. I'd rather be unsure and curious.
Sure, sometimes we have to make guesses and muddle through. I would rather be honest with myself about it and admit that I'm just guessing about things. I'd rather remain open to making other, different guesses in the future. I just don't see much value in false confidence. I'd rather be unsure and curious.
jodi !ariasXXmaE joined in and replied with this 6 years ago, 17 hours later, 21 hours after the original post[^] [v] #1,073,314
completely disagree
WrongDongRong joined in and replied with this 6 years ago, 6 minutes later, 21 hours after the original post[^] [v] #1,073,315
@OP
ahh, the owners, yeah there they want me to pay extra
ahh, the owners, yeah there they want me to pay extra
Anonymous A (OP) replied with this 6 years ago, 44 minutes later, 22 hours after the original post[^] [v] #1,073,328
@1,073,193 (C)
I think you don't understand what I'm talking about though. Would you rather be unsure about your worth as a person or be sure that you matter even though there's nothing there to show that? Sometimes you gotta believe in yourself is what I'm saying. If you simply trust the way things appear to you and just go with it, well shit, might as well be a North Korean and believe that North Korea is best Korea.
I think you don't understand what I'm talking about though. Would you rather be unsure about your worth as a person or be sure that you matter even though there's nothing there to show that? Sometimes you gotta believe in yourself is what I'm saying. If you simply trust the way things appear to you and just go with it, well shit, might as well be a North Korean and believe that North Korea is best Korea.
Anonymous F joined in and replied with this 6 years ago, 1 minute later, 22 hours after the original post[^] [v] #1,073,329
Anonymous A (OP) replied with this 6 years ago, 11 minutes later, 22 hours after the original post[^] [v] #1,073,334
@previous (F)Of course, but sometimes north korea ain't north korea because you is north korea, best korea.
Anonymous C replied with this 6 years ago, 8 hours later, 1 day after the original post[^] [v] #1,073,510
@1,073,328 (A)
You seem oddly fixated on North Korea.
> Sometimes you gotta believe in yourself is what I'm saying.
Sure, I agree. I just don't think someone needs to lie to themselves to do that. I'd rather have no narrative and be open to what that means rather than making up something that is false to justify my goals or actions.
> If you simply trust the way things appear to you and just go with it, well shit, might as well be a North Korean and believe that North Korea is best Korea.
I would guess there are plenty of North Koreans who don't think that but hesitate to say so out loud. The ones that do truly buy into the state sponsored narrative might be able to make themselves feel better from time to time by thinking they are part of something greater. But isn't that a problem with following a narrative regardless of whether it is right or wrong? Isn't that narrative just a psychological trap that keeps them toiling away instead of pursuing some other goal?
You seem oddly fixated on North Korea.
> Sometimes you gotta believe in yourself is what I'm saying.
Sure, I agree. I just don't think someone needs to lie to themselves to do that. I'd rather have no narrative and be open to what that means rather than making up something that is false to justify my goals or actions.
> If you simply trust the way things appear to you and just go with it, well shit, might as well be a North Korean and believe that North Korea is best Korea.
I would guess there are plenty of North Koreans who don't think that but hesitate to say so out loud. The ones that do truly buy into the state sponsored narrative might be able to make themselves feel better from time to time by thinking they are part of something greater. But isn't that a problem with following a narrative regardless of whether it is right or wrong? Isn't that narrative just a psychological trap that keeps them toiling away instead of pursuing some other goal?
Anonymous A (OP) replied with this 6 years ago, 1 hour later, 1 day after the original post[^] [v] #1,073,542
@previous (C)
I'm fixated on north korea because it is a easy example to use, like a prop so to speak. You wouldn't really want a life without a narrative, i still think you don't really know what that means. However, you make a very good point about a north korean which buys into the state narrative. Why do you think the state makes up sucj a narrative? It is obvious isn't it? Because it wouldn't survive without it. Now suppose the north korean state would suddenly decide to replace the false narrative with the true one, what on earth would that narrative look like? Surely it would make them look evil for preaching the lies that they have but beyond that? Wouldn't it be something about human rights? What are human rights if not ideas about people and their place in the world, ideas that really just exist on paper unless we make it exist with our faith and loyalty to them.
I'm fixated on north korea because it is a easy example to use, like a prop so to speak. You wouldn't really want a life without a narrative, i still think you don't really know what that means. However, you make a very good point about a north korean which buys into the state narrative. Why do you think the state makes up sucj a narrative? It is obvious isn't it? Because it wouldn't survive without it. Now suppose the north korean state would suddenly decide to replace the false narrative with the true one, what on earth would that narrative look like? Surely it would make them look evil for preaching the lies that they have but beyond that? Wouldn't it be something about human rights? What are human rights if not ideas about people and their place in the world, ideas that really just exist on paper unless we make it exist with our faith and loyalty to them.
Anonymous C replied with this 6 years ago, 1 day later, 3 days after the original post[^] [v] #1,074,157
@previous (A)
> You wouldn't really want a life without a narrative, i still think you don't really know what that means.
I'm game to give it a shot just to see. Maybe I'm not understanding what your bar is for having no narrative. I suppose someone with absolutely no narrative would just be living moment to moment. That would be bizarre. Maybe there's a way a find happiness in that. But that's mostly unrealistic. People live with some kind of narrative structure to their lives. Some story they tell themselves to tie everything together.
I think I'm distinguishing between a narrative that demands a certain end to one that is open ended and unfinished. I think an open ended structure is preferable. Deciding that you're going to live out some part in a narrative that you have made, even if it may be false, seems vain. Doing that seems like stubbornly trying to make the world fit your expectations because you can't deal with the idea of your expectations being wrong. It seems almost robotic in a way. The kind of rigid, fixed actions that you would expect of an unthinking automaton. I think it is much more befitting a conscious person to react to their environment and adjust themselves to solve problems and find their way in the world by figuring out how it works for themselves.
That was the impetus for my reply to your original point. I don't think a false narrative is better than no narrative. Having no narrative means that you're free to make one to suit your needs.
> You wouldn't really want a life without a narrative, i still think you don't really know what that means.
I'm game to give it a shot just to see. Maybe I'm not understanding what your bar is for having no narrative. I suppose someone with absolutely no narrative would just be living moment to moment. That would be bizarre. Maybe there's a way a find happiness in that. But that's mostly unrealistic. People live with some kind of narrative structure to their lives. Some story they tell themselves to tie everything together.
I think I'm distinguishing between a narrative that demands a certain end to one that is open ended and unfinished. I think an open ended structure is preferable. Deciding that you're going to live out some part in a narrative that you have made, even if it may be false, seems vain. Doing that seems like stubbornly trying to make the world fit your expectations because you can't deal with the idea of your expectations being wrong. It seems almost robotic in a way. The kind of rigid, fixed actions that you would expect of an unthinking automaton. I think it is much more befitting a conscious person to react to their environment and adjust themselves to solve problems and find their way in the world by figuring out how it works for themselves.
That was the impetus for my reply to your original point. I don't think a false narrative is better than no narrative. Having no narrative means that you're free to make one to suit your needs.
Anonymous A (OP) replied with this 6 years ago, 55 minutes later, 3 days after the original post[^] [v] #1,074,169
@previous (C)
> Having no narrative means that you're free to make one to suit your needs
A little bit confusing and paradoxical, since you seemed to disapprove of making one up?
Paranoid delusional can be viewed as the patient desperately trying to make sense of his/her psychotic symptoms. The paranoid delusions is exactly the outcome of trying to be rational, it's the patient trying to explain his situation that is his psychosis. If the patient would just close his eyes and hold his ears while pretending that none of this is happening, he could end up in a catatonic state where he's basically absent from life because psychosis has become his life unfortunately and he's not confronting it.
One could say, why doesn't the psychotic just realize he's psychotic immediately? Why do crazy people not just realize they are psychotic from the get go and get some help straight away? It's because the madness starts by trying to explain and after you have explained the things you don't understand (the psychosis) you see it with the mask on which is your explanation, then these explanations build up into a world of your own and this is quite natural and a very human thing to do, to explain the things around you so that they make sense to you and allow you to live your life.
A narrative is a basic human necessity is what I'm trying to get at here. You could ask yourself all sorts of questions that are important to you, and not knowing the answer to none of them would make life very difficult. For example I don't think I'm going to die tomorrow, I know everything is possible but the narrative is that I'm not going to.
> Having no narrative means that you're free to make one to suit your needs
A little bit confusing and paradoxical, since you seemed to disapprove of making one up?
Paranoid delusional can be viewed as the patient desperately trying to make sense of his/her psychotic symptoms. The paranoid delusions is exactly the outcome of trying to be rational, it's the patient trying to explain his situation that is his psychosis. If the patient would just close his eyes and hold his ears while pretending that none of this is happening, he could end up in a catatonic state where he's basically absent from life because psychosis has become his life unfortunately and he's not confronting it.
One could say, why doesn't the psychotic just realize he's psychotic immediately? Why do crazy people not just realize they are psychotic from the get go and get some help straight away? It's because the madness starts by trying to explain and after you have explained the things you don't understand (the psychosis) you see it with the mask on which is your explanation, then these explanations build up into a world of your own and this is quite natural and a very human thing to do, to explain the things around you so that they make sense to you and allow you to live your life.
A narrative is a basic human necessity is what I'm trying to get at here. You could ask yourself all sorts of questions that are important to you, and not knowing the answer to none of them would make life very difficult. For example I don't think I'm going to die tomorrow, I know everything is possible but the narrative is that I'm not going to.
Anonymous C replied with this 6 years ago, 42 minutes later, 3 days after the original post[^] [v] #1,074,181
@previous (A)
> A little bit confusing and paradoxical, since you seemed to disapprove of making one up?
I see where that could be confusing. Perhaps I phrased that poorly. I'm trying to differentiate between making a narrative based on reality and following one that is wholly made up. The first case involves crafting explanations based on experience. The second case is vainly trying to act out a part even when it is inappropriate or unsuited to the situation. There is a danger in equivocating between these two cases and thinking that any explanation is just as good as any other.
> A little bit confusing and paradoxical, since you seemed to disapprove of making one up?
I see where that could be confusing. Perhaps I phrased that poorly. I'm trying to differentiate between making a narrative based on reality and following one that is wholly made up. The first case involves crafting explanations based on experience. The second case is vainly trying to act out a part even when it is inappropriate or unsuited to the situation. There is a danger in equivocating between these two cases and thinking that any explanation is just as good as any other.
Anonymous A (OP) replied with this 6 years ago, 21 minutes later, 3 days after the original post[^] [v] #1,074,190
@previous (C)
Sometimes it really is the best option though, not always but sometimes. There's a real functional purpose for it all, fantasy has a purpose and this purpose can be crucial to our well being. As I've explained.
Sometimes it really is the best option though, not always but sometimes. There's a real functional purpose for it all, fantasy has a purpose and this purpose can be crucial to our well being. As I've explained.