Topic: The NSA has been illegally monitoring all AT&T Internet data since 2002
Anonymous A started this discussion 15 years ago #7,446
Anonymous B joined in and replied with this 15 years ago, 10 minutes later[^] [v] #130,027
Doesn't surprise me.
Anonymous C joined in and replied with this 15 years ago, 13 minutes later, 23 minutes after the original post[^] [v] #130,033
Extremely interesting read. Thanks OP.
[^_^] !IOdbnXsKDk joined in and replied with this 15 years ago, 27 minutes later, 51 minutes after the original post[^] [v] #130,040
Shit, I have sbcglobal which is now att. :(
Syntax joined in and replied with this 15 years ago, 14 minutes later, 1 hour after the original post[^] [v] #130,051
ah crap. Been inside top to bottom of the facility. Office in the building for one year.
There as a consultant from the get go for PBMS (Pac Bell Mobile Systems aka Cingular aka AT&T Wireless.
NSA is legally authorized to monitor all traffic from USA to all countries outside the USA. All traffic. phone and internet.
The observations in that article really show how little the AT&T guy new about the system.
They’re supposed to monitor telecommunications, looking for potential threats. That’s their job. They’ve been doing it for years. People fuss and complain when they don’t manage to intercept terrorist messages.
copypasta wiki
"The NSA warrantless surveillance controversy (AKA "Warrantless Wiretapping") concerns surveillance of persons within the United States during the collection of foreign intelligence by the U.S. National Security Agency (NSA) as part of the war on terror. Under this program, referred to by the Bush administration as the "terrorist surveillance program",[1] part of the broader President's Surveillance Program, the NSA is authorized by executive order to monitor, without search warrants, phone calls, Internet activity (Web, e-mail, etc.), text messaging, and other communication involving any party believed by the NSA to be outside the U.S., even if the other end of the communication lies within the U.S. Critics, however, claimed that it was in an effort to attempt to silence critics of the Bush Administration and their handling of several hot button issues during its tenure."
There as a consultant from the get go for PBMS (Pac Bell Mobile Systems aka Cingular aka AT&T Wireless.
NSA is legally authorized to monitor all traffic from USA to all countries outside the USA. All traffic. phone and internet.
The observations in that article really show how little the AT&T guy new about the system.
They’re supposed to monitor telecommunications, looking for potential threats. That’s their job. They’ve been doing it for years. People fuss and complain when they don’t manage to intercept terrorist messages.
copypasta wiki
"The NSA warrantless surveillance controversy (AKA "Warrantless Wiretapping") concerns surveillance of persons within the United States during the collection of foreign intelligence by the U.S. National Security Agency (NSA) as part of the war on terror. Under this program, referred to by the Bush administration as the "terrorist surveillance program",[1] part of the broader President's Surveillance Program, the NSA is authorized by executive order to monitor, without search warrants, phone calls, Internet activity (Web, e-mail, etc.), text messaging, and other communication involving any party believed by the NSA to be outside the U.S., even if the other end of the communication lies within the U.S. Critics, however, claimed that it was in an effort to attempt to silence critics of the Bush Administration and their handling of several hot button issues during its tenure."
Syntax double-posted this 15 years ago, 1 hour later, 2 hours after the original post[^] [v] #130,074
(Citing a deleted or non-existent reply.)
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/NSA_warrantless_surveillance_controversy
On several occasions I needed to consult with the most expert of legal experts on a matter of USA Constitutional law. Finding "one" with the proper security clearances limited me. The last time I did this I ended up with a former Fed Judge who became a professor teaching law. I remember when he said to me
The issue you have does not have a clear cut and dried answer regarding 'is it legal or illegal according to the USA Constitution.
If you read the Wiki article top to bottom and I have on more then one occasion (it does change over time)
You will end up Confucius. Its simple IF the USA has declared "War" then the US President has clear powers to suspend Warrants for intercepts.
AT&T complied and even made mistakes in the compliance and as a result of ACLU suit, they apologized lol
I personally have a great deal of history on this issue - EXCEPT my expertise no longer counts. I know/Knew the law prior to 9-11-2001. Now I really have no clue and if you jump down to the bottom references of the Wiki article
^ Risen, James; Lichtblau, Eric (January 16, 2009). "Court Affirms Wiretapping Without Warrants". New York Times, January 15, 2009. Retrieved January 16, 2009.
^ Perez, Evan (January 16, 2009). "Court Backs U.S. Wiretapping". Wall Street Journal, January 16, 2009. Retrieved January 16, 2009.
^ "Intelligence Court Releases Ruling in Favor of Warrantless Wiretapping". Washington Post, January 15, 2009. January 16, 2009. Retrieved January 16, 2009.
^ "Court ruling endorses Bush surveillance policy". Associated Press, January 15, 2009. Retrieved January 16, 2009.
^ "No. 08-01 IN RE: DIRECTIVE (Redacted) * PURSUANT TO SECTION 105B OF THE FOREIGN INTELLIGENCE SURVEILLANCE ACT (redacted tect) ON PETITION FOR REVIEW OF A DECISION OF THE UNITED STATES FOREIGN INTELLIGENCE SURVEILLANCE COURT". United States Foreign Intelligence Surveillance Court of Review. August 22, 2008. Retrieved 2009-01-16.
I think this is where it stands TODAY.
Prior to 9-11-2001 NSA did monitor all communications as approved by the law - All from anywhere on Planet Earth to USA. Primary Fiber lines are far South of San Francisco and do end up splitting from the AT&T facility to AT&T and NSA. (OPEN Public records) No warrants required. Outgoing calls from USA to Planet Earth that needed to be watched required a Judges Warrant.
NOW NOT -
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/NSA_warrantless_surveillance_controversy
On several occasions I needed to consult with the most expert of legal experts on a matter of USA Constitutional law. Finding "one" with the proper security clearances limited me. The last time I did this I ended up with a former Fed Judge who became a professor teaching law. I remember when he said to me
The issue you have does not have a clear cut and dried answer regarding 'is it legal or illegal according to the USA Constitution.
If you read the Wiki article top to bottom and I have on more then one occasion (it does change over time)
You will end up Confucius. Its simple IF the USA has declared "War" then the US President has clear powers to suspend Warrants for intercepts.
AT&T complied and even made mistakes in the compliance and as a result of ACLU suit, they apologized lol
I personally have a great deal of history on this issue - EXCEPT my expertise no longer counts. I know/Knew the law prior to 9-11-2001. Now I really have no clue and if you jump down to the bottom references of the Wiki article
^ Risen, James; Lichtblau, Eric (January 16, 2009). "Court Affirms Wiretapping Without Warrants". New York Times, January 15, 2009. Retrieved January 16, 2009.
^ Perez, Evan (January 16, 2009). "Court Backs U.S. Wiretapping". Wall Street Journal, January 16, 2009. Retrieved January 16, 2009.
^ "Intelligence Court Releases Ruling in Favor of Warrantless Wiretapping". Washington Post, January 15, 2009. January 16, 2009. Retrieved January 16, 2009.
^ "Court ruling endorses Bush surveillance policy". Associated Press, January 15, 2009. Retrieved January 16, 2009.
^ "No. 08-01 IN RE: DIRECTIVE (Redacted) * PURSUANT TO SECTION 105B OF THE FOREIGN INTELLIGENCE SURVEILLANCE ACT (redacted tect) ON PETITION FOR REVIEW OF A DECISION OF THE UNITED STATES FOREIGN INTELLIGENCE SURVEILLANCE COURT". United States Foreign Intelligence Surveillance Court of Review. August 22, 2008. Retrieved 2009-01-16.
I think this is where it stands TODAY.
Prior to 9-11-2001 NSA did monitor all communications as approved by the law - All from anywhere on Planet Earth to USA. Primary Fiber lines are far South of San Francisco and do end up splitting from the AT&T facility to AT&T and NSA. (OPEN Public records) No warrants required. Outgoing calls from USA to Planet Earth that needed to be watched required a Judges Warrant.
NOW NOT -
Anonymous F joined in and replied with this 15 years ago, 2 hours later, 5 hours after the original post[^] [v] #130,079
fucking america...
Syntax replied with this 15 years ago, 3 hours later, 8 hours after the original post[^] [v] #130,134
Voice of !WisdomHsuU joined in and replied with this 15 years ago, 49 minutes later, 9 hours after the original post[^] [v] #130,162
I wouldn't mind it so much, had it not been so secretive.
Stealth replied with this 15 years ago, 31 minutes later, 9 hours after the original post[^] [v] #130,179
@previous (Voice of !WisdomHsuU)
If you look at the tyme line was it really a secrete? It truly does get Confucius.
President and DOJ argued in high courts that President had authority to suspend lawful intercept warrants.
War powers authority. Issue of course is that how do you declare War on a non-entity?
9-11 was/is still unique. I R not a fan of Bush, however I think any President in his shoes would have pulled out all stops as he did.
I still teach classes in "Lawful Intercept technology" and that includes classes once per year for "One Client" where the class is filled with mostly FBI agents. The last one I taught started with my preamble that I am Clueless re the Law "Currently"
Now consider that one huge difference between Cops and FBI field agents is that Cops almost NEVER have a degree much less a law degree and FBI field agents have degrees and usually Law degrees albeit its rare they ever practice law.
I hand out a printed set of Wiki as well as a package of the court decisions, and tell them "GOOD LUCK UNDERSTANDING IT"
Then move on to the how 2's with the equipment for "Lawful Intercepts" Not very often Agents need hands on, but its common practice to take them step by step through the process so that they appreciate the complexity. Its not trivial to intercept on the fly and keep tabs on a moving target, nor to get both sides of the conversation or text. I have yet to see a single TV or Movie even get close to how its really done.
One reason may be that so far as I know, no one has been allowed inside the high security rooms to view the process much less see the special equipment.
That said...In Russia the stuff is wide open in the NOC's. Any tech or engineer available can walk up to the Sun Solaris work stations and fiddle with what it takes to do an Intercept.
The one thing Russia has over everyone else is the mass huge unbelievable security at the front gate of
Co-los. Perhaps because all of them were former KGB operations and to a large degree they still are only renamed. Inside its in total wide open.
If you look at the tyme line was it really a secrete? It truly does get Confucius.
President and DOJ argued in high courts that President had authority to suspend lawful intercept warrants.
War powers authority. Issue of course is that how do you declare War on a non-entity?
9-11 was/is still unique. I R not a fan of Bush, however I think any President in his shoes would have pulled out all stops as he did.
I still teach classes in "Lawful Intercept technology" and that includes classes once per year for "One Client" where the class is filled with mostly FBI agents. The last one I taught started with my preamble that I am Clueless re the Law "Currently"
Now consider that one huge difference between Cops and FBI field agents is that Cops almost NEVER have a degree much less a law degree and FBI field agents have degrees and usually Law degrees albeit its rare they ever practice law.
I hand out a printed set of Wiki as well as a package of the court decisions, and tell them "GOOD LUCK UNDERSTANDING IT"
Then move on to the how 2's with the equipment for "Lawful Intercepts" Not very often Agents need hands on, but its common practice to take them step by step through the process so that they appreciate the complexity. Its not trivial to intercept on the fly and keep tabs on a moving target, nor to get both sides of the conversation or text. I have yet to see a single TV or Movie even get close to how its really done.
One reason may be that so far as I know, no one has been allowed inside the high security rooms to view the process much less see the special equipment.
That said...In Russia the stuff is wide open in the NOC's. Any tech or engineer available can walk up to the Sun Solaris work stations and fiddle with what it takes to do an Intercept.
The one thing Russia has over everyone else is the mass huge unbelievable security at the front gate of
Co-los. Perhaps because all of them were former KGB operations and to a large degree they still are only renamed. Inside its in total wide open.
(Edited 52 seconds later.)
Voice of !WisdomHsuU replied with this 15 years ago, 2 minutes later, 9 hours after the original post[^] [v] #130,183
@previous (Stealth)
Oh, so you're from Rossiya? That would explain your horribly-broken sentence structure.
Oh, so you're from Rossiya? That would explain your horribly-broken sentence structure.
(Edited 33 seconds later.)
Syntax replied with this 15 years ago, 16 minutes later, 10 hours after the original post[^] [v] #130,191
@previous (Voice of !WisdomHsuU)
er no no NO
First trip other then dark of nites was for Qualcomm and that started in Moscow, then on to St Petersburg, and then to Novosibirsk Siberia for 6 full months and that trip started in dead of serious winter in Siberia. Loved it in total. Getting dressed to go outside was sure a lot of work.
IR 50% Russian and 50% Hungarian yet Born in Los Angeles. People that try DOX's of me are clueless when I mention the Church of Scientology, because the headquarters are exactly where I was born. Of course it was not even a Church much less a religion back then.
Living/Working in Russia was just terrific. One can walk and I did, on the iced up River right up to China's border. If I had it to do all over again I wood have had in my passport a current Visa for China so I could just walk on in. No Russian in Novosibirsk, has such a passport. Also one unique feature of Novosibirsk is the massive 100 miles end to end of electronic surveillance all aimed at China. Antennas that go for miles and miles of all sorts.
One might wonder if Sarah Palin has that set up so she can hear Russia as well as C it from her house in Alaska.
er no no NO
First trip other then dark of nites was for Qualcomm and that started in Moscow, then on to St Petersburg, and then to Novosibirsk Siberia for 6 full months and that trip started in dead of serious winter in Siberia. Loved it in total. Getting dressed to go outside was sure a lot of work.
IR 50% Russian and 50% Hungarian yet Born in Los Angeles. People that try DOX's of me are clueless when I mention the Church of Scientology, because the headquarters are exactly where I was born. Of course it was not even a Church much less a religion back then.
Living/Working in Russia was just terrific. One can walk and I did, on the iced up River right up to China's border. If I had it to do all over again I wood have had in my passport a current Visa for China so I could just walk on in. No Russian in Novosibirsk, has such a passport. Also one unique feature of Novosibirsk is the massive 100 miles end to end of electronic surveillance all aimed at China. Antennas that go for miles and miles of all sorts.
One might wonder if Sarah Palin has that set up so she can hear Russia as well as C it from her house in Alaska.
Voice of !WisdomHsuU replied with this 15 years ago, 5 minutes later, 10 hours after the original post[^] [v] #130,192
@previous (Syntax)
Did your parents teach you how to use the English language?
> 50% Russian and 50% Hungarian
I am of foreign blood too, yet I can use English just fine.
Did your parents teach you how to use the English language?
> 50% Russian and 50% Hungarian
I am of foreign blood too, yet I can use English just fine.
Syntax replied with this 15 years ago, 29 minutes later, 10 hours after the original post[^] [v] #130,197
@previous (Voice of !WisdomHsuU)
My Dyslexia does not manifest itself in the spoken word. It does clearly non clear of course in the written words. It also makes it impossible for me to visualize perspective drawings, those that use the hidden lines to provide the 3rd dimension. Was one hell of a tyme for me at UCLA to deal with that and get a passing grade in just one engineering course.
On the other hand in my work environment years later as a Manager of Engineering all the way up to VP of Engineering, I had to sign off on drawings loaded with those hidden lines. So I set a dollar amount as what I was willing to take a chance with and b4 signing off on say $100,000 in tooling I demanded a model.
No budget for models they wood say to me, and I wood say shut down the full department for the day and build one out of trash. Cardboard, coffee cans cut up for thin metal, plastic dis and dat found in trash.
Sure enough something wood not fit when all was put 2getter with masking tape n scotch tape. Led to sum fame and huge bonus's over tyme.
Many if not most born outside of USA and knows English can rite far more better then I, yet to my eyes I do real good.
Good I can afford a staff of on call editors and on occasion even do a post to prove I can. Usually with a different handle and later show that it was Thee --- of course with sum help. Editors work cheep except the Technical editors bill me for lots of $$$$$ and they are not easy to find and keep!!
My Dyslexia does not manifest itself in the spoken word. It does clearly non clear of course in the written words. It also makes it impossible for me to visualize perspective drawings, those that use the hidden lines to provide the 3rd dimension. Was one hell of a tyme for me at UCLA to deal with that and get a passing grade in just one engineering course.
On the other hand in my work environment years later as a Manager of Engineering all the way up to VP of Engineering, I had to sign off on drawings loaded with those hidden lines. So I set a dollar amount as what I was willing to take a chance with and b4 signing off on say $100,000 in tooling I demanded a model.
No budget for models they wood say to me, and I wood say shut down the full department for the day and build one out of trash. Cardboard, coffee cans cut up for thin metal, plastic dis and dat found in trash.
Sure enough something wood not fit when all was put 2getter with masking tape n scotch tape. Led to sum fame and huge bonus's over tyme.
Many if not most born outside of USA and knows English can rite far more better then I, yet to my eyes I do real good.
Good I can afford a staff of on call editors and on occasion even do a post to prove I can. Usually with a different handle and later show that it was Thee --- of course with sum help. Editors work cheep except the Technical editors bill me for lots of $$$$$ and they are not easy to find and keep!!
Voice of !WisdomHsuU replied with this 15 years ago, 6 minutes later, 10 hours after the original post[^] [v] #130,200
Syntax replied with this 15 years ago, 32 minutes later, 11 hours after the original post[^] [v] #130,209
@previous (Voice of !WisdomHsuU)
http://www.dys-add.com/symptoms.html#writtenwork
"People with dyslexia usually have an "impoverished written product." That means there is a huge difference between their ability to tell you something and their ability to write it down. They tend to:
avoid writing whenever possible
write everything as one very long sentence
not understand that a sentence has to start with a capital letter and end with punctuation
be confused about what is a complete sentence versus a fragment
misspell many words—even though they often use only very simple one-syllable words that they are "sure" they know how to spell
take an unusually long time to write, due to dysgraphia
have nearly illegible handwriting, due to dysgraphia
use space poorly on the page; odd spacing between words, may ignore margins, sentences tightly packed into one section of the page instead of being evenly spread out
do not notice their errors when "proofreading." They will read back what they wanted to say, not what is actually on the page."
Brains are wired very differently - if you read beyond that you will see "3-D visual-spatial skills" are supposed to be better - for me just the opposite
People with dyslexia are often gifted in math. Their three-dimensional visualization skills help them "see" math concepts more quickly and clearly than non-dyslexic people. Unfortunately, difficulties in directionality, rote memorization, reading, and sequencing can make the following math tasks so difficult that their math gifts are never discovered.
Memorizing addition and subtraction facts
Memorizing multiplication tables
Remembering the sequence of steps in long division
Reading word problems
Copying an answer from one spot to a different spot
Starting a math problem on the wrong side
Showing their work
They often "see" math in their head, so showing their work is almost impossible.
Doing math rapidly
They often excel at higher levels of math, such as algebra, geometry, and calculus—if they have a teacher who works around the math problems caused by their dyslexia.
So I fit all of that except for the 3-D visual-spatial skills. I can visualize a number of linear and non linear algebra functions and while running daily for instance I will on occasions even figure out a math issue for work but have a hard limit on 2nd order functions and can work around but its a real byyyyytch.
Then again most people have trouble doing them on paper unless they are in school learning by route. 5 years after school, they lose it all, including engineering students unless they are the few gifted ones.
http://www.dys-add.com/symptoms.html#writtenwork
"People with dyslexia usually have an "impoverished written product." That means there is a huge difference between their ability to tell you something and their ability to write it down. They tend to:
avoid writing whenever possible
write everything as one very long sentence
not understand that a sentence has to start with a capital letter and end with punctuation
be confused about what is a complete sentence versus a fragment
misspell many words—even though they often use only very simple one-syllable words that they are "sure" they know how to spell
take an unusually long time to write, due to dysgraphia
have nearly illegible handwriting, due to dysgraphia
use space poorly on the page; odd spacing between words, may ignore margins, sentences tightly packed into one section of the page instead of being evenly spread out
do not notice their errors when "proofreading." They will read back what they wanted to say, not what is actually on the page."
Brains are wired very differently - if you read beyond that you will see "3-D visual-spatial skills" are supposed to be better - for me just the opposite
People with dyslexia are often gifted in math. Their three-dimensional visualization skills help them "see" math concepts more quickly and clearly than non-dyslexic people. Unfortunately, difficulties in directionality, rote memorization, reading, and sequencing can make the following math tasks so difficult that their math gifts are never discovered.
Memorizing addition and subtraction facts
Memorizing multiplication tables
Remembering the sequence of steps in long division
Reading word problems
Copying an answer from one spot to a different spot
Starting a math problem on the wrong side
Showing their work
They often "see" math in their head, so showing their work is almost impossible.
Doing math rapidly
They often excel at higher levels of math, such as algebra, geometry, and calculus—if they have a teacher who works around the math problems caused by their dyslexia.
So I fit all of that except for the 3-D visual-spatial skills. I can visualize a number of linear and non linear algebra functions and while running daily for instance I will on occasions even figure out a math issue for work but have a hard limit on 2nd order functions and can work around but its a real byyyyytch.
Then again most people have trouble doing them on paper unless they are in school learning by route. 5 years after school, they lose it all, including engineering students unless they are the few gifted ones.
Anonymous H joined in and replied with this 15 years ago, 11 minutes later, 11 hours after the original post[^] [v] #130,211
> America> Land of the free
Syntax replied with this 15 years ago, 1 hour later, 12 hours after the original post[^] [v] #130,231
@previous (H)
Yes just not as free as it used 2b
If in fact it really was.
Consider that long list of Black Listed actors screen writers and directors.
Or union organizers or aliens looking for refuge from oppressed other places.
Or those looking for religious freedom other then belief in some jerk off jew hung from cross
The Exceptions to freedom makes a long list.
BUT Its still one hell of a country to live in and its one hell of a place to find ways to make lots of $$$$ and US Gov even lets those who do pay less in tax's to ease the making of more even easier.
Yes just not as free as it used 2b
If in fact it really was.
Consider that long list of Black Listed actors screen writers and directors.
Or union organizers or aliens looking for refuge from oppressed other places.
Or those looking for religious freedom other then belief in some jerk off jew hung from cross
The Exceptions to freedom makes a long list.
BUT Its still one hell of a country to live in and its one hell of a place to find ways to make lots of $$$$ and US Gov even lets those who do pay less in tax's to ease the making of more even easier.
Handel !khEOdtKF56 joined in and replied with this 15 years ago, 2 minutes later, 13 hours after the original post[^] [v] #130,234
ITT: New Syntax copy pasta.
Syntax replied with this 15 years ago, 2 minutes later, 13 hours after the original post[^] [v] #130,238
Handel !khEOdtKF56 replied with this 15 years ago, 3 minutes later, 13 hours after the original post[^] [v] #130,239
@previous (Syntax)
Implying this whole thread isn't full of it, I honestly think Sim is paying you to supply mc with copypasta.
Implying this whole thread isn't full of it, I honestly think Sim is paying you to supply mc with copypasta.
protip !!pMmAiEwOm joined in and replied with this 15 years ago, 8 minutes later, 13 hours after the original post[^] [v] #130,241
Syntax replied with this 15 years ago, 18 minutes later, 13 hours after the original post[^] [v] #130,262
@130,239 (Handel !khEOdtKF56)
The other way around.
I attempted to get sim and r04r to take some of my hard earned money for something still waiting for r04r to return from school to home to look in2 my offer. One wood have thought I sent it in snail mail, and her return is via slow boat from China.
The other way around.
I attempted to get sim and r04r to take some of my hard earned money for something still waiting for r04r to return from school to home to look in2 my offer. One wood have thought I sent it in snail mail, and her return is via slow boat from China.
Anonymous K joined in and replied with this 15 years ago, 55 minutes later, 14 hours after the original post[^] [v] #130,302
sexual aerosol !!mtq555+/1 joined in and replied with this 15 years ago, 8 minutes later, 14 hours after the original post[^] [v] #130,309
I have nothing to hidebesides hundreds of illegally downloaded albums and a few games