Topic: trolling VATSIM with virtual cartel air traffic
squeegee started this discussion 9 years ago #62,749
so the plan is to basically run small flights of single engine aircraft from a dirt airfield somewhere in mexico and cross the border at very low altitude and hope to evade air traffic control long enough to land somewhere in the US without getting booted from VATSIM for violating FAA regulations.for those of you who don't know VATSIM is an addon for flight simulators that links you to a network of live, volunteer air traffic controllers who work in real time to coordinate air traffic for the VATSIM network of flight schools and simulator hobbyists all over the world. it's actually a super strict no-fun-allowed type environment which requires all users to follow proper radio protocol and FAA regulations. in VATSIM you must request permission from the tower to even taxi your aircraft.
you literally have to pass a written pilot's exam and be issued basically a virtual pilot's license to fly on their network. you gotta like email people and talk to them and jump through some hoops to even get on there. in looking around trying to find out how to get a license i found out there's like a whole bunch of enthusiast groups who run virtual airlines and have hundreds of members who all coordinate a schedule and fly a shuttle service essentially. they have routes.
so i figured why not drugs? i've reached out to a couple of groups that do training for a P1 VATSIM license or whatever so hopefully i'll know pretty soon whether or not it's even possible to fly clandestine flights.
Meta joined in and replied with this 9 years ago, 1 hour later[^] [v] #788,238
I almost said "People seriously pay real money to follow someone else's rules?" but then I realized this describes every game ever.
squeegee (OP) replied with this 9 years ago, 2 hours later, 4 hours after the original post[^] [v] #788,273
@previous (Meta)well, it's meant to emulate a professional environment for the sake of it. that's kinda the whole point of it, to play by the rules. it makes for an environment that's useful for actual flight training. at the lowest level, the drop-in-drop-out multiplayer environment of Steam there's very little realism and it's not really very useful. people doing ATC are useless and most people don't even use the radio so it's just for dicking about.
but if you want to fly correctly and have useful ATC with whom you can practice radio protocol then something like VATSIM is pretty useful. it's also used by some flight school to do simulator training since it takes the burden of ATC off of the instructors, at least that's what VATSIM claims. i would think for it to be useful for flight schools it'd need to take itself pretty seriously.
and it's also not the only one, but it's the free one. it also has a lot of users since it's the free one. evidently there are others, pilotedge.net costs 20 bucks a month and it does the same thing.
VATSIM just requires that you create an account and jump through a lot of hoops to get onto their servers.
uh, you'd be surprised, actually, at all of the mods. flight sims are a really deep rabbit hole. $3,500 worth of mods just for FSX on steam, and most of those were add-on aircraft and airport overhauls. some cities, some re-textures, some weather, just a fuck load. and then there's all of the mods for fsx that aren't available on steam but can be installed none the less. like weapon mods and all kinds of stuff to interface with custom hand-made hydraulic stewart platforms and hundreds of buttons and switches.
rabbit hole. i just wanna run some virtual drugs is all.
squeegee (OP) double-posted this 9 years ago, 14 minutes later, 4 hours after the original post[^] [v] #788,275
SO, the goal is to fly on the vatsim network and never interact with any ATC. fly under the radar, so to speak, and if we're ever called out by ATC then we're "busted" and lose. and might actually get booted from the network entirely for violating FAA regulations. i just need to find out how all of that works and see if that's something that can actually happen.
it's possible that i'll need to, like, request VATSIM to provide ATC at a specific tower as an immersion breaking but necessary component of staffing... like a billion airports, so it's possible that i'll never be detected by VATSIM ATC under normal circumstances, and so there might not ever really be a moment where ATC suddenly chimes in, "unidentified aircraft, altitude 500ft, heading 305, squawk 7600, you are in violation of FAA regulation blah blah blah." whatever they say.
i'm still not sure how it all works.
it's possible that i'll need to, like, request VATSIM to provide ATC at a specific tower as an immersion breaking but necessary component of staffing... like a billion airports, so it's possible that i'll never be detected by VATSIM ATC under normal circumstances, and so there might not ever really be a moment where ATC suddenly chimes in, "unidentified aircraft, altitude 500ft, heading 305, squawk 7600, you are in violation of FAA regulation blah blah blah." whatever they say.
i'm still not sure how it all works.
brie !kGoudaMCFA joined in and replied with this 9 years ago, 5 hours later, 10 hours after the original post[^] [v] #788,295
@previous (squeegee)
Is there a transponder or something you can turn off? Or will they always be able to see you the whole time and you are just hoping they will ignore you?
Is there a transponder or something you can turn off? Or will they always be able to see you the whole time and you are just hoping they will ignore you?
squeegee (OP) replied with this 9 years ago, 2 hours later, 13 hours after the original post[^] [v] #788,302
@previous (brie !kGoudaMCFA)
i think there is a transponder, but i've barely read the docs so i'm not 100% sure how that all works in vatsim.
i think there is a transponder, but i've barely read the docs so i'm not 100% sure how that all works in vatsim.
squeegee joined in and replied with this 9 years ago, 1 hour later, 15 hours after the original post[^] [v] #788,314
okay, so yeah, there are transponders and you can turn them on and off and towers and atc all have effective ranges. sounds like it's possible to turn your transponder to standby and stop reporting your id, altitude, and heading. it's also possible it sounds like to just fly out of range of towers.
i wonder what happens when you turn off your transponder and fly through active airspace with ATC. can they somehow id you as a player and boot you?
hmmm
i wonder what happens when you turn off your transponder and fly through active airspace with ATC. can they somehow id you as a player and boot you?
hmmm
FuckAlms !vX8K53rFBI joined in and replied with this 9 years ago, 1 hour later, 16 hours after the original post[^] [v] #788,317
@previous (squeegee)
That would put a bit of a damper on the whole realism aspect. We don't just vaporize cartel planes when we spot them.
That would put a bit of a damper on the whole realism aspect. We don't just vaporize cartel planes when we spot them.
Anonymous F joined in and replied with this 9 years ago, 1 hour later, 17 hours after the original post[^] [v] #788,330
@788,314 (squeegee)
Don't you have to file a flight plan or something? Wouldn't it tip when them off when your plane doesn't show up where they expect it to be?
Don't you have to file a flight plan or something? Wouldn't it tip when them off when your plane doesn't show up where they expect it to be?
squeegee replied with this 9 years ago, 46 minutes later, 18 hours after the original post[^] [v] #788,337
@previous (F)
not sure, you don't really have to file complete flight plans, even irl. you can request VFR and direct GPS routing and avoid filing a flight plan. pretty sure you're then responsible for keeping in contact with control, and your low altitude routes aren't controlled much outside of nearby airports. if you need to cross controlled airspace then you gotta contact the tower and request permission to flyover or get vectors to fly around. you can avoid that by avoiding flying into controlled airspace, just go around.
we used to fly VFR to oklahoma and we'd basically just follow highways and occasionally talk to towers and let them know we were there. then we'd request to land somewhere.
it's possible that we could take off from a dirt airfield in mexico without ATC and then find some small municipal or private airfield to land somewhere just over the border. it's possible all that could be done on the vatsim network without ever being picked up by atc anywhere. might can route around it.
not sure, you don't really have to file complete flight plans, even irl. you can request VFR and direct GPS routing and avoid filing a flight plan. pretty sure you're then responsible for keeping in contact with control, and your low altitude routes aren't controlled much outside of nearby airports. if you need to cross controlled airspace then you gotta contact the tower and request permission to flyover or get vectors to fly around. you can avoid that by avoiding flying into controlled airspace, just go around.
we used to fly VFR to oklahoma and we'd basically just follow highways and occasionally talk to towers and let them know we were there. then we'd request to land somewhere.
it's possible that we could take off from a dirt airfield in mexico without ATC and then find some small municipal or private airfield to land somewhere just over the border. it's possible all that could be done on the vatsim network without ever being picked up by atc anywhere. might can route around it.
squeegee (OP) replied with this 9 years ago, 3 hours later, 21 hours after the original post[^] [v] #788,364
@788,317 (FuckAlms !vX8K53rFBI)
yeah, so i'm not sure what happens in an instance like that, i'll have to find out. interestingly one of the things you can do is have it simulate emergencies and one possible failure could be electrical. you could legit lose your radio and have no ability to respond to ATC. i have no idea what you'd do in a situation like that, no idea how you'd signal the tower and get yourself into the stack and onto the ground, but i'm betting the procedure isn't to just keep flying off into the sunset. if ATC notices you without a transponder or radio they may think "electrical problem" briefly but i would imagine you not trying to land might tip them off that something is fucky.
i need to find out how much control ATC players have over your session, and exactly what data the servers make available to ATC.
i'm making an assumption, but i'm thinking if all you have to do is turn off your transponder to avoid being identified then lots of people would break the servers that way, so there's got to be some way for them to hard-stop the exploits. maybe they'll have to jump through some hoops to get your IP and identify you that way, assuming the simulator actually allows for hiding IDs. maybe not though.
it's always possible VATSIM recognizes if you're flying without a transponder and drops your session and auto issues a ban. i guess it depends on if there are legit reasons someone might need to be doing that for some kind of training purposes.
it also occurs to me that there are AWACKS in this sim. now that could be fun, basically flying ATC that could patrol the border watching for smugglers. actually that would probably be boring as fuck. fly a giant circle for an hour with everyone staring at radar screens. ok, so there's like also a weapons mod... it, like, enables all the weapons on the f-18...
yeah, so i'm not sure what happens in an instance like that, i'll have to find out. interestingly one of the things you can do is have it simulate emergencies and one possible failure could be electrical. you could legit lose your radio and have no ability to respond to ATC. i have no idea what you'd do in a situation like that, no idea how you'd signal the tower and get yourself into the stack and onto the ground, but i'm betting the procedure isn't to just keep flying off into the sunset. if ATC notices you without a transponder or radio they may think "electrical problem" briefly but i would imagine you not trying to land might tip them off that something is fucky.
i need to find out how much control ATC players have over your session, and exactly what data the servers make available to ATC.
i'm making an assumption, but i'm thinking if all you have to do is turn off your transponder to avoid being identified then lots of people would break the servers that way, so there's got to be some way for them to hard-stop the exploits. maybe they'll have to jump through some hoops to get your IP and identify you that way, assuming the simulator actually allows for hiding IDs. maybe not though.
it's always possible VATSIM recognizes if you're flying without a transponder and drops your session and auto issues a ban. i guess it depends on if there are legit reasons someone might need to be doing that for some kind of training purposes.
it also occurs to me that there are AWACKS in this sim. now that could be fun, basically flying ATC that could patrol the border watching for smugglers. actually that would probably be boring as fuck. fly a giant circle for an hour with everyone staring at radar screens. ok, so there's like also a weapons mod... it, like, enables all the weapons on the f-18...
squeegee replied with this 9 years ago, 1 week later, 1 week after the original post[^] [v] #790,858
made some progress with this, but there're still hoops to jump through. still gotta take the test and all. but i can fly the basic cessna well enough. i've got landing down pretty well and can do different go around maneuvers. i can also radio navigate which is pretty bad ass. i'm about to start learning ILS landings so i can get an instrument rated license and fly IFR.
we'll see if i can pass the pilots exam, there's a lot of FAA regulations and rules to know. i'm about to learn in a 2 engine beechcraft becuase they can carry a lot more cargo, have a longer range, and a faster cruise speed. harder to fly though.
we'll see if i can pass the pilots exam, there's a lot of FAA regulations and rules to know. i'm about to learn in a 2 engine beechcraft becuase they can carry a lot more cargo, have a longer range, and a faster cruise speed. harder to fly though.