Topic: Syntax, how is this Wifi adapter physically possible??
Metæ started this discussion 10 years ago #52,329
I'm thinking of buying this to add wifi to a desktop I'm going to build, but I cannot believe how small it is. How can a Wifi antenna this small possibly work?adam djensen joined in and replied with this 10 years ago, 3 minutes later[^] [v] #682,057
i think it mostly just has tiny antennae. i assume size isnt really a problem since your on a desktop so you could buy ones with big antennae too!
Anonymous C joined in and replied with this 10 years ago, 14 seconds later, 3 minutes after the original post[^] [v] #682,058
Oh boy. Now you've done it.
Metæ (OP) replied with this 10 years ago, 24 seconds later, 3 minutes after the original post[^] [v] #682,059
@682,057 (adam djensen)
Yes! But how can antennæ this small pick up a signal?!
@previous (C)
I do like to ask him electrical engineering questions now and again. I know Syntax literally wrote the book on this stuff.
Yes! But how can antennæ this small pick up a signal?!
@previous (C)
I do like to ask him electrical engineering questions now and again. I know Syntax literally wrote the book on this stuff.
(Edited 1 minute later.)
adam djensen replied with this 10 years ago, 4 minutes later, 8 minutes after the original post[^] [v] #682,060
Metæ (OP) replied with this 10 years ago, 1 minute later, 9 minutes after the original post[^] [v] #682,061
adam djensen replied with this 10 years ago, 4 minutes later, 14 minutes after the original post[^] [v] #682,062
adam jensen joined in and replied with this 10 years ago, 1 minute later, 15 minutes after the original post[^] [v] #682,063
im gay lol
Anonymous E joined in and replied with this 10 years ago, 52 minutes later, 1 hour after the original post[^] [v] #682,068
It also uses your computer WiFi to pick up a signal.
NB4 10 myle long rant from syntax.
NB4 10 myle long rant from syntax.
Anonymous F joined in and replied with this 10 years ago, 53 minutes later, 2 hours after the original post[^] [v] #682,071
@682,061 (Metæ)
Your phone picks up WiFi and probably has an antenna just as small. How are you mystified by this?
Your phone picks up WiFi and probably has an antenna just as small. How are you mystified by this?
Catherine !TGirlYJKXM joined in and replied with this 10 years ago, 19 minutes later, 2 hours after the original post[^] [v] #682,076
Just have faith, OP. :-)
It just works.
It just works.
Metæ (OP) replied with this 10 years ago, 1 hour later, 3 hours after the original post[^] [v] #682,103
@682,071 (F)
The antenna on my phone is like an inch long (the internal antenna — you can see the 4g and Wifi antennæ when you take the back off). I have a Bluetooth adapter this size which works but I understand that because I only expect it to work within 5-10ft range. We're talking 20-30 feet, through several walls for WiFi. My brain says small antenna=small range and I can't understand how such a small antenna can do the job.
The antenna on my phone is like an inch long (the internal antenna — you can see the 4g and Wifi antennæ when you take the back off). I have a Bluetooth adapter this size which works but I understand that because I only expect it to work within 5-10ft range. We're talking 20-30 feet, through several walls for WiFi. My brain says small antenna=small range and I can't understand how such a small antenna can do the job.
(Edited 18 seconds later.)
adam djensen replied with this 10 years ago, 1 minute later, 3 hours after the original post[^] [v] #682,104
Anonymous F replied with this 10 years ago, 54 minutes later, 4 hours after the original post[^] [v] #682,122
@682,103 (Metæ)
If you want to satisfy yourself you can do the math on WiFi wavelengths and the antenna size needed. The walls don't matter that much. That kind of EM radiation generally sees through wood, drywall, or most stuff until you get up to the density of metals. Unless you have a bunch of metal screening around your house and in the walls, this shouldn't be a problem.
EDIT: Although you should consider putting metal screen shielding in your walls because you never know when the reptilians are listening.
If you want to satisfy yourself you can do the math on WiFi wavelengths and the antenna size needed. The walls don't matter that much. That kind of EM radiation generally sees through wood, drywall, or most stuff until you get up to the density of metals. Unless you have a bunch of metal screening around your house and in the walls, this shouldn't be a problem.
EDIT: Although you should consider putting metal screen shielding in your walls because you never know when the reptilians are listening.
(Edited 4 minutes later.)
Antikhristos !M6R0eWkIpk joined in and replied with this 10 years ago, 6 minutes later, 4 hours after the original post[^] [v] #682,126
@OP
Reptilian technology, obv.
Reptilian technology, obv.
Anonymous I joined in and replied with this 10 years ago, 32 minutes later, 5 hours after the original post[^] [v] #682,143
Metæ
Your question is a VERY Good question. And I could write you a book about this because for something that Looks so simple it gets real complicated to explain the Ins n Outs
So a quick answer which is Accurate! Every frequency has a Wavelength - WiFi Frequencies are 2.5 and 5.0 GHz. The Wavelength for 5.0 GHz is 6.0 CM. Now typically in communications a full wavelength is almost NEVER Used. Most typical are 1/4 Wavelength and then 1/2 Wavelength. The reasons are multiple and that in itself wood take several chapters of a book.
Anyway as you can see 6.0 CM or the most common 1/4 Wavelength as 1.5 CM is small enough for any package. AND AND There is only ONE IDEAL LENGTH for the Antenna because it needs to be RESONATE.
This is a case where Larger Longer is NOT MORE Better - ITS LESS BETTER to be anything other than ONE Exact amount of CM/Inches. It will still work when smaller than necessary or larger than necessary BUT JUST NOT as good as the single Exact amount. So of course with a Bandwidth of Frequencies re Channels on Wifi or Cell systems or receiving a band of AM or FM radio stations - No single length is ideal so it ends up as a compromise re length.
With simple or very complex tricks very small antennas (smaller than the 1/4 wavelength) can be incorporated into Cell phones. Many ways to tune the Antenna to make it appear smaller or longer but only as a COMPROMISE -
I suppose I could complex this up by a mention of the Radiation Pattern of an Antenna. Will only do that upon request. So it does come down to a desirable length as a matter of simple Physics vs other parameters like do you need an antenna with a circular pattern vs a directional pattern AND the need to MATCH the Impedance of the Antenna to the Transmitter/Receiver - This is where things end up complicated - Failure to Match ends up burning up battery life in a cell phone -
Metæ I am betting in your lifetime you have driven along some country road and observed a SINGLE Tower from an AM Radio Station. That Single Antenna is rare these days - It can ONLY be used on a Clear Channel station by law. When you see two or three or 5 - 7 Towers spaced apart - That is a directional Antenna - Energy is dispersed in an exact amount - Nulls to protect a station in the next town on the same frequency or 1000 miles away.
Just about anyone who uses a Cell phone is aware that when one is out and about and you are on edge of service - Holding the phone and moving it around/up/down under chin etc may give you the connect you need to complete the call - That is because the Antenna inside the phone is DIRECTIONAL - Its near impossible to design the Antenna inside the phone to be non-directional. OLD Cell phones the first phones were Omni directional.
tl;dr?
Wifi ideal is a compromise because you need to cover 2.5Ghz and 5.0Ghz and 3.0 CM with some tricks re special materials the antenna rests on (not just a printed circuit board) makes it possible to get a better compromise.
Your question is a VERY Good question. And I could write you a book about this because for something that Looks so simple it gets real complicated to explain the Ins n Outs
So a quick answer which is Accurate! Every frequency has a Wavelength - WiFi Frequencies are 2.5 and 5.0 GHz. The Wavelength for 5.0 GHz is 6.0 CM. Now typically in communications a full wavelength is almost NEVER Used. Most typical are 1/4 Wavelength and then 1/2 Wavelength. The reasons are multiple and that in itself wood take several chapters of a book.
Anyway as you can see 6.0 CM or the most common 1/4 Wavelength as 1.5 CM is small enough for any package. AND AND There is only ONE IDEAL LENGTH for the Antenna because it needs to be RESONATE.
This is a case where Larger Longer is NOT MORE Better - ITS LESS BETTER to be anything other than ONE Exact amount of CM/Inches. It will still work when smaller than necessary or larger than necessary BUT JUST NOT as good as the single Exact amount. So of course with a Bandwidth of Frequencies re Channels on Wifi or Cell systems or receiving a band of AM or FM radio stations - No single length is ideal so it ends up as a compromise re length.
With simple or very complex tricks very small antennas (smaller than the 1/4 wavelength) can be incorporated into Cell phones. Many ways to tune the Antenna to make it appear smaller or longer but only as a COMPROMISE -
I suppose I could complex this up by a mention of the Radiation Pattern of an Antenna. Will only do that upon request. So it does come down to a desirable length as a matter of simple Physics vs other parameters like do you need an antenna with a circular pattern vs a directional pattern AND the need to MATCH the Impedance of the Antenna to the Transmitter/Receiver - This is where things end up complicated - Failure to Match ends up burning up battery life in a cell phone -
Metæ I am betting in your lifetime you have driven along some country road and observed a SINGLE Tower from an AM Radio Station. That Single Antenna is rare these days - It can ONLY be used on a Clear Channel station by law. When you see two or three or 5 - 7 Towers spaced apart - That is a directional Antenna - Energy is dispersed in an exact amount - Nulls to protect a station in the next town on the same frequency or 1000 miles away.
Just about anyone who uses a Cell phone is aware that when one is out and about and you are on edge of service - Holding the phone and moving it around/up/down under chin etc may give you the connect you need to complete the call - That is because the Antenna inside the phone is DIRECTIONAL - Its near impossible to design the Antenna inside the phone to be non-directional. OLD Cell phones the first phones were Omni directional.
tl;dr?
Wifi ideal is a compromise because you need to cover 2.5Ghz and 5.0Ghz and 3.0 CM with some tricks re special materials the antenna rests on (not just a printed circuit board) makes it possible to get a better compromise.
FuckAlms !vX8K53rFBI joined in and replied with this 10 years ago, 11 minutes later, 5 hours after the original post[^] [v] #682,148
@682,122 (F)
> The walls don't matter that much. That kind of EM radiation generally sees through wood, drywall, or most stuff until you get up to the density of metals.
Ok, then how about the Belkin I have on my seedbox? I leave the computer running continuously, and we can go out of town for a week and I can check throughout the week and see that it is still functioning. But, if I'm in my room on my bed, it will quickly die in spite of the fact that my bed is 4 feet farther away from the router than the Belkin wifi adapter? Am I some sort of radio-sucking mutant?
> The walls don't matter that much. That kind of EM radiation generally sees through wood, drywall, or most stuff until you get up to the density of metals.
Ok, then how about the Belkin I have on my seedbox? I leave the computer running continuously, and we can go out of town for a week and I can check throughout the week and see that it is still functioning. But, if I'm in my room on my bed, it will quickly die in spite of the fact that my bed is 4 feet farther away from the router than the Belkin wifi adapter? Am I some sort of radio-sucking mutant?
Maddy !kCITGirlXc joined in and replied with this 10 years ago, 2 minutes later, 5 hours after the original post[^] [v] #682,152
@previous (FuckAlms !vX8K53rFBI)
I'm pretty sure WiFi radio waves have trouble with concrete. It's often an issue at my mom's house, which has concrete walls.
I'm pretty sure WiFi radio waves have trouble with concrete. It's often an issue at my mom's house, which has concrete walls.
FuckAlms !vX8K53rFBI replied with this 10 years ago, 50 seconds later, 5 hours after the original post[^] [v] #682,153
Syntax replied with this 10 years ago, 4 minutes later, 5 hours after the original post[^] [v] #682,154
@682,148 (FuckAlms !vX8K53rFBI)
Yes to the Belkin you are in fact a radio wave sucking mutant Exactly
Solution for this is easy - Just dehydrate yourself 100% - To the Antenna you are a big huge bag of water. You end up fucking up the radiation pattern of the WiFi signal.
Also the walls don't matter is true of AM wavelength radio signals. Them Nails and remember as Anon I/Me said - 1.5 CM is resonate for 5.0 GHz - So dry wall with nails and flashing often used in construction and how about them PIPES Them Pipes - Fucks with the radiation pattern -
Yes to the Belkin you are in fact a radio wave sucking mutant Exactly
Solution for this is easy - Just dehydrate yourself 100% - To the Antenna you are a big huge bag of water. You end up fucking up the radiation pattern of the WiFi signal.
Also the walls don't matter is true of AM wavelength radio signals. Them Nails and remember as Anon I/Me said - 1.5 CM is resonate for 5.0 GHz - So dry wall with nails and flashing often used in construction and how about them PIPES Them Pipes - Fucks with the radiation pattern -
FuckAlms !vX8K53rFBI replied with this 10 years ago, 9 minutes later, 5 hours after the original post[^] [v] #682,157
Syntax replied with this 10 years ago, 7 minutes later, 6 hours after the original post[^] [v] #682,159
@682,152 (Maddy !kCITGirlXc)
To be accurate - As I said it gets complicated and Frequencies like 2.5 GHz/5GHz do NOT really like going through a plate glass window or dry wall or brick walls and thick concrete is even worse than an equal amount of thickness of a brick wall. (its the little rocks with minerals in the concrete)
Its one reason why say Verizon in USA with the 800 MHz band does so much more better for distance and penetration into a building. AT&T bought Qualcomm 800 MHz frequencies some time back but have been real slow to implement them in to system.
All of this attenuation can be over come if say one were to use the same 2.5 GHz power levels the Microwave oven uses - Alas you end up cooked and fried up while trying to use your WiFi
To be accurate - As I said it gets complicated and Frequencies like 2.5 GHz/5GHz do NOT really like going through a plate glass window or dry wall or brick walls and thick concrete is even worse than an equal amount of thickness of a brick wall. (its the little rocks with minerals in the concrete)
Its one reason why say Verizon in USA with the 800 MHz band does so much more better for distance and penetration into a building. AT&T bought Qualcomm 800 MHz frequencies some time back but have been real slow to implement them in to system.
All of this attenuation can be over come if say one were to use the same 2.5 GHz power levels the Microwave oven uses - Alas you end up cooked and fried up while trying to use your WiFi
Syntax double-posted this 10 years ago, 12 minutes later, 6 hours after the original post[^] [v] #682,161
@682,157 (FuckAlms !vX8K53rFBI)
In the ideal case and the WiFi designer attempts to make the radiation pattern Omni Directional - No matter where you are in the house you end up as that bag of water Mutant - You adsorb and eat up a lot of the WiFi signal and at the same time you fuck up its radiation pattern.
Now and this will be a bit of fun for you. Betting you have in car years ago listened to AM or FM radio and at a stop light you end up getting a lot of static or signal fades and you inch the car forward or back a inch or two and Bang you got Signal - You were in a Null
So try this- On your bed roll over one or two inches. You in for a big surprise. Maybe even discover that in the same exact position the amount of dinner you had b4 jumping in2 bed will effect the performance of the WiFi signal.
Wot I do and I tell EVERYONE to do is MOVE THE FUCKING Router - Move it even up or down a few Inches - Put it up or down on a shelf or as in my case where I have my router in the laundry room - (Yes I no the moisture is not so much a good idea) I had it on the top shelf with the detergent and moved it one shelf down with bags for vacuum cleaner - Big change in how well that router now works.
Location Location - at and most modern routers are working at a really really REALLY UGLY Frequency of 5.0 GHz cause the signal is absorbed by EVERY FUCKING Thing near/around/ near by - THERE IS NO REASON OF FUCKING EARTH to use such a High Frequency signal OTHER than it provides lots of channels and lower frequencies are busy making MUCH money for everyone else and all that is left is the 5.0 GHz
Now IF IF I am lucky the old 2.5 GHz should make me a small fortune soon buttt to splain Y wood have me locked up in a Federal Prison.
2.5GHz is more better IF you can use it - Unless someone near by has a leaky old Microwave oven -
In the ideal case and the WiFi designer attempts to make the radiation pattern Omni Directional - No matter where you are in the house you end up as that bag of water Mutant - You adsorb and eat up a lot of the WiFi signal and at the same time you fuck up its radiation pattern.
Now and this will be a bit of fun for you. Betting you have in car years ago listened to AM or FM radio and at a stop light you end up getting a lot of static or signal fades and you inch the car forward or back a inch or two and Bang you got Signal - You were in a Null
So try this- On your bed roll over one or two inches. You in for a big surprise. Maybe even discover that in the same exact position the amount of dinner you had b4 jumping in2 bed will effect the performance of the WiFi signal.
Wot I do and I tell EVERYONE to do is MOVE THE FUCKING Router - Move it even up or down a few Inches - Put it up or down on a shelf or as in my case where I have my router in the laundry room - (Yes I no the moisture is not so much a good idea) I had it on the top shelf with the detergent and moved it one shelf down with bags for vacuum cleaner - Big change in how well that router now works.
Location Location - at and most modern routers are working at a really really REALLY UGLY Frequency of 5.0 GHz cause the signal is absorbed by EVERY FUCKING Thing near/around/ near by - THERE IS NO REASON OF FUCKING EARTH to use such a High Frequency signal OTHER than it provides lots of channels and lower frequencies are busy making MUCH money for everyone else and all that is left is the 5.0 GHz
Now IF IF I am lucky the old 2.5 GHz should make me a small fortune soon buttt to splain Y wood have me locked up in a Federal Prison.
2.5GHz is more better IF you can use it - Unless someone near by has a leaky old Microwave oven -
Big Daddy Derek !Uvm54ORbmo joined in and replied with this 10 years ago, 3 minutes later, 6 hours after the original post[^] [v] #682,164
Syntax replied with this 10 years ago, 1 minute later, 6 hours after the original post[^] [v] #682,165
@previous (Big Daddy Derek !Uvm54ORbmo)
I B betting that if you submitted Metæ question to Google you wood find it difficult to get the quality of reply I gave. However you wood get some 1/2 assed version but in more better Inglish.
I B betting that if you submitted Metæ question to Google you wood find it difficult to get the quality of reply I gave. However you wood get some 1/2 assed version but in more better Inglish.
Big Daddy Derek !Uvm54ORbmo replied with this 10 years ago, 21 minutes later, 6 hours after the original post[^] [v] #682,169
FuckAlms !vX8K53rFBI replied with this 10 years ago, 9 minutes later, 6 hours after the original post[^] [v] #682,177
Big Daddy Derek !Uvm54ORbmo replied with this 10 years ago, 7 minutes later, 6 hours after the original post[^] [v] #682,179
FuckAlms !vX8K53rFBI replied with this 10 years ago, 10 minutes later, 7 hours after the original post[^] [v] #682,185
Big Daddy Derek !Uvm54ORbmo replied with this 10 years ago, 4 minutes later, 7 hours after the original post[^] [v] #682,190
FuckAlms !vX8K53rFBI replied with this 10 years ago, 2 minutes later, 7 hours after the original post[^] [v] #682,195
@previous (Big Daddy Derek !Uvm54ORbmo)
I don't have to try, I just don't. But you might want to try. You seem to be having them quite frequently based on your post history.
I don't have to try, I just don't. But you might want to try. You seem to be having them quite frequently based on your post history.
Big Daddy Derek !Uvm54ORbmo replied with this 10 years ago, 31 minutes later, 7 hours after the original post[^] [v] #682,217
FuckAlms !vX8K53rFBI replied with this 10 years ago, 1 minute later, 7 hours after the original post[^] [v] #682,218
Big Daddy Derek !Uvm54ORbmo replied with this 10 years ago, 6 minutes later, 7 hours after the original post[^] [v] #682,221
FuckAlms !vX8K53rFBI replied with this 10 years ago, 5 minutes later, 8 hours after the original post[^] [v] #682,228
Anonymous F replied with this 10 years ago, 8 hours later, 16 hours after the original post[^] [v] #682,450
@682,148 (FuckAlms !vX8K53rFBI)
Perhaps the WiFi is hesitant about getting into bed with you? Try buying it dinner and taking it out to a movie first.
Perhaps the WiFi is hesitant about getting into bed with you? Try buying it dinner and taking it out to a movie first.
Metæ (OP) replied with this 10 years ago, 6 hours later, 22 hours after the original post[^] [v] #682,499
@682,143 (I)I see. I was curious because a lot of desktop WiFi cards looked like pic related with 4 inch antennæ. Took apart an old laptop several years ago and small internal Wifi card was hooked to wire antenna that went all the way around the 15" screen.
Anonymous C replied with this 10 years ago, 3 minutes later, 22 hours after the original post[^] [v] #682,500
@previous (Metæ)
I don't typically read syntax posts in detail, but you seem to. So I'm curious, does he actually seem to know what he's talking about? Does he come across as somebody educated in engineering and electronics?
I don't typically read syntax posts in detail, but you seem to. So I'm curious, does he actually seem to know what he's talking about? Does he come across as somebody educated in engineering and electronics?
Metæ (OP) replied with this 10 years ago, 10 minutes later, 23 hours after the original post[^] [v] #682,501
@previous (C)
He does. I think there is an actual electrical engineer behind the Ten Myle dyslexia Mark Twain inglish spreling.
He does. I think there is an actual electrical engineer behind the Ten Myle dyslexia Mark Twain inglish spreling.
Syntax replied with this 10 years ago, 6 hours later, 1 day after the original post[^] [v] #682,535
@682,499 (Metæ)Ah yes those HUGE Antennas. If you still have an old one in a junk drawer - break open that HUGE Antenna. C wot is NOT inside LoL
Over the many years I have been in metaphorical fist fights with Marketing people. They wood demand I make design changes to the externals of a package so as to enhance some desired marketing feature.
In the end they won cause that is the nature of the business. Wayyyyy B4 you were born but you can still find this in Antique stores. Huge console cabinets with a AM Radio. And a couple 3 years B4 TV sets were available they had a selector switch with TV as one point on rotation. That might have made sense IF there was actually a input for TV sound on the back of the unit.
So getting back to Tech stuff - Actually a HUGE Antenna for 5.0 GHz can make sense in very special circumstances. For instance my Globalstar ground stations - Globalstar/Cellphone/Handsets Transmit on the L band 1 to 2 GHz and receive on the S band. The Satellites Up/Down load that phone traffic via 5.0 GHz and on the ground it requires a HUGE Antenna (Or really the appearance of Huge) The dish in this photo is 6 Meters in size yet that is just the reflector - The antenna that feeds it... Is the same tiny size as the antenna inside that TP link you posted in this topics photo (someone might get picky with me re calling the feed to the dish an Antenna(Its actually the open end of a Wave Guide (pipe) So it spits out the signal or when in receive mode it picks up the reflected RF and pipes it down to the receiver at the bottom of that dish. In dimension it is less than 3CM in size
tl:dr The problem with making a very long antenna for ANY FREQUENCY - Is - It becomes highly directional. This of course is very useful in many circumstances - For WiFi it wood be total NONSENSE because one wants to go anywhere in the house and a Long Antenna wood beam the signal to just tight corners - The Major advantage is That does Multiple the RF energy
Now no one is going to read this far down - But for the No ones THIS IS USEFUL INFORMATION for WiFi users cause - Just wot if you live in a building that has a central Rec/Pool area outside the building and you want to use your Router way beyond the range of the Router - Easy if there is an external Antenna connection OR you break off or into the Router to connect to external Antenna and Make it very directional - Super easy to make that kind of Antenna and increase the range of a Router by a HUGE HUGE amount 1/4 or 1/2 or more miles if you want to for dirt cheep
Syntax double-posted this 10 years ago, 1 week later, 1 week after the original post[^] [v] #687,504
BUMP for skunnard from IRC
Anonymous M joined in and replied with this 10 years ago, 36 seconds later, 1 week after the original post[^] [v] #687,506
Metæ (OP) replied with this 10 years ago, 3 days later, 2 weeks after the original post[^] [v] #688,254
Forgot to add, been using it for two weeks now and it works quite well! Thank you guys! I was wrong!
Anonymous N joined in and replied with this 10 years ago, 3 days later, 2 weeks after the original post[^] [v] #689,344
Syntax replied with this 10 years ago, 12 hours later, 2 weeks after the original post[^] [v] #689,612
@688,254 (Metæ)And I forgot me thinks to say. The simple TP link might work a lot more better with an extension. Extend it away from Desktop just inch or so - Now only if they built an extender that swivel.
Nor were you really wrong. I also forgot to add. The routers with two antennas for diversity. Inside that long plastic antennas. The good ones which are usually a bit more expensive - the real tiny antenna 1.5 CM to 3.0 CM has a thin coax cable inside that puts the real antenna up on top. The less costly versions to cut costs just put them on bottom - Not really bad but not as good as higher up
But notice the distance of the antenna from the case of WiFi - close to case (Metal) and your adapter is close to desktop. That messes up the send/reception
Compromises of life. Glad it works for you and most people. With of course nulls in house here and there