Topic: Are EMPs permanent?
Anonymous A started this discussion 10 years ago #50,281
They say if one were to hit and destroy all of our technology then we will be sent back to the dark ages, but what is preventing us from constructing newer technology to replace the old? I mean, there are still iPhones not constructed yet so even if the previous ones get damaged then how come we won't just continue making them?
(Edited 28 seconds later.)
beckyderp !4aMoRa.T2Q joined in and replied with this 10 years ago, 22 minutes later[^] [v] #652,605
What are you on about?
RWBY Rhubarb? !!iNo3FkiZx joined in and replied with this 10 years ago, 11 minutes later, 34 minutes after the original post[^] [v] #652,608
@previous (beckyderp !4aMoRa.T2Q)
You don't know what an EMP is?
An electromagnetic pulse. They can fuck up electronic devices, and are somewhat famous for this ability.
You don't know what an EMP is?
An electromagnetic pulse. They can fuck up electronic devices, and are somewhat famous for this ability.
DasSheeple joined in and replied with this 10 years ago, 15 minutes later, 49 minutes after the original post[^] [v] #652,611
Imagine it fries the electronics used to produce electronics. Even tho you know how shit is produced, you'd still have to go all the way and start from rudimental tech and use it to develop more sophisticated tech etc. etc...
Anonymous E joined in and replied with this 10 years ago, 29 minutes later, 1 hour after the original post[^] [v] #652,613
@previous (DasSheeple)
That. The problem with a large scale EMP event would be that it knocks out the infrastructure. Manufacturing equipment, transportation, Internet, power, phones, satellites, swing dancing, etc. You could theoretically just make more, but that is going to be really hard when the power grid isn't coming back up, all your computers are fried, and everyone is running for the nearest big box store to secure a month's supply of Twinkies.
That. The problem with a large scale EMP event would be that it knocks out the infrastructure. Manufacturing equipment, transportation, Internet, power, phones, satellites, swing dancing, etc. You could theoretically just make more, but that is going to be really hard when the power grid isn't coming back up, all your computers are fried, and everyone is running for the nearest big box store to secure a month's supply of Twinkies.
Anonymous A (OP) replied with this 10 years ago, 59 minutes later, 2 hours after the original post[^] [v] #652,620
@652,611 (DasSheeple)
@previous (E)
But can't you always restore power if the power planet is using solar panels, wind turbines, and hydroelectricity?
I mean, we hold modern ideals and I doubt that'll be permanently killed except for a brief moment, so wouldn't the advancement back to more sophisticated technology be quicker than before?
@previous (E)
But can't you always restore power if the power planet is using solar panels, wind turbines, and hydroelectricity?
I mean, we hold modern ideals and I doubt that'll be permanently killed except for a brief moment, so wouldn't the advancement back to more sophisticated technology be quicker than before?
squeegee joined in and replied with this 10 years ago, 57 minutes later, 3 hours after the original post[^] [v] #652,625
it's not hard to shield ahainst em, and i'd wager most important things are shielded. even cop cars have a cage around the computer to protect againt e-attacks on cruisers. all military jets (and civilian aircraft) are as well. it's a simple copper mesh that costs nothing but they don't exist on r3gular cars or our power grid. the grid would be fucked and it would take years to recover, but lots and lots of stuff would be fine. and anything powered down too, actually.
Anonymous G joined in and replied with this 10 years ago, 4 hours later, 7 hours after the original post[^] [v] #652,651
DasSheeple replied with this 10 years ago, 3 hours later, 10 hours after the original post[^] [v] #652,680
@652,625 (squeegee)
You're delusional if you really think:
> and anything powered down too, actually.
EMPs induce electrical current in anything conducting electricity. Problem with strong EMPs is that the current induced would be much higher than what the devices/grid can withstand, thus frying it. if you want to shield something agains it, you need to shield it from the power supply all the way to the end... anything in the circuit not shielded will induce electrical current and fry shit down the line.
Good thing is, humans can't really produce such a strong EMP a.k.a. EMP can't be weaponized. The most effective way to generate a neat EMP these days is to fire a nuclear bomb. The by-product of a nuclear explosion is an EMP. But a solar flair could fry us.
You're delusional if you really think:
> and anything powered down too, actually.
EMPs induce electrical current in anything conducting electricity. Problem with strong EMPs is that the current induced would be much higher than what the devices/grid can withstand, thus frying it. if you want to shield something agains it, you need to shield it from the power supply all the way to the end... anything in the circuit not shielded will induce electrical current and fry shit down the line.
Good thing is, humans can't really produce such a strong EMP a.k.a. EMP can't be weaponized. The most effective way to generate a neat EMP these days is to fire a nuclear bomb. The by-product of a nuclear explosion is an EMP. But a solar flair could fry us.
dreamworks skg llc, ltd. replied with this 10 years ago, 5 minutes later, 10 hours after the original post[^] [v] #652,683
@previous (DasSheeple)
I don't think being slightly misinformed on the effects of electromagnetic pulse counts as delusion but I liked the rest of your post
I don't think being slightly misinformed on the effects of electromagnetic pulse counts as delusion but I liked the rest of your post
DasSheeple replied with this 10 years ago, 12 minutes later, 10 hours after the original post[^] [v] #652,684
@previous (dreamworks skg llc, ltd.)
I graduated "Wireless communications" in high school... as a kid I suggested my mentor that my final thesis should be producing an EMP as strong as in Oceans 11 (I think it was 11) to make the city go dark for a bit then power back up.
Turns out, that's not even close to how it would work in real life.
I graduated "Wireless communications" in high school... as a kid I suggested my mentor that my final thesis should be producing an EMP as strong as in Oceans 11 (I think it was 11) to make the city go dark for a bit then power back up.
Turns out, that's not even close to how it would work in real life.
FuckAlms !vX8K53rFBI joined in and replied with this 10 years ago, 5 hours later, 16 hours after the original post[^] [v] #652,698
squeegee joined in and replied with this 10 years ago, 1 hour later, 17 hours after the original post[^] [v] #652,727
Syntax joined in and replied with this 10 years ago, 1 hour later, 19 hours after the original post[^] [v] #652,785
@652,613 (E)
Most accurate portrayal so far
@652,625 (squeegee)
> it's not hard to shield ahainst em, and i'd wager most important things are shielded. even cop cars have a cage around the computer to protect againt e-attacks on cruisers
That protection is only for RF close by attempts at hacking. Its not for EMP -
> all military jets (and civilian aircraft) are as well. it's a simple copper mesh that costs nothing
Again that is not for EMP. Mostly shielding to prevent leakage to spy snoopers in the air and on the ground.
> the grid would be fucked and it would take years to recover, but lots and lots of stuff would be fine. and anything powered down too, actually.
POWER GRID EXACTLY Multi year shutdown. Also local solar cells end up totally destroyed.
There is one famous case of a Solar Flare knocking out US East coast grid for some multi hour period - One can look that up
Major Issue and situations where Shielding is totally ineffective with NO solutions really published. H-Bombs that are designed for EMP which includes X-Ray of massive amounts.
X-Rays of course could be blocked by Lead boxes. Not practical for aircraft or computers on ground - Military and Satellites cause X-Rays from Sun flares are common - All transistors/IC's are pre burned in to degrade them - Performance drops to say 60% and further bursts do not so much damage after that. High performance Chips just end up destroyed by X-Rays. Modern communications end up as trash.
EMP to take out the power grid is currently considered the main problem. Easy to take out all the control electronics - Replacement might take 6-8 months - BUTTTT the real problem are the Huge transformers - The largest of all - USA does not even make these anymore and they take 9-11 months to make and the waiting list world wide wood block USA for about 3 years from even starting to get the grid back up.
Can add Cosmic shit like Gamma radiation can be cranked out by EMP Bombs - One does not shield electronics from such. Power companies no its the stuff buried in the ground that end up as huge antennas that feed the EMP into the system.
I ain't no expert on this OTHER then wot happens to Satellites. Currently I have many many many Satellites that have been messed with by Cosmic shit and many are now out of service as a result.
Nor is it always the Silicon transistor/IC that is the problem. PC connections can develop a sorta of metallic fungus (Look up Purple Plague) Ion flow that ends up conductive short circuits. Insulators can end up conductive.
tl;dr?
EMP Atomic Bombs that are only designed to destroy electronics are more feared then the regular ones.
Most accurate portrayal so far
@652,625 (squeegee)
> it's not hard to shield ahainst em, and i'd wager most important things are shielded. even cop cars have a cage around the computer to protect againt e-attacks on cruisers
That protection is only for RF close by attempts at hacking. Its not for EMP -
> all military jets (and civilian aircraft) are as well. it's a simple copper mesh that costs nothing
Again that is not for EMP. Mostly shielding to prevent leakage to spy snoopers in the air and on the ground.
> the grid would be fucked and it would take years to recover, but lots and lots of stuff would be fine. and anything powered down too, actually.
POWER GRID EXACTLY Multi year shutdown. Also local solar cells end up totally destroyed.
There is one famous case of a Solar Flare knocking out US East coast grid for some multi hour period - One can look that up
Major Issue and situations where Shielding is totally ineffective with NO solutions really published. H-Bombs that are designed for EMP which includes X-Ray of massive amounts.
X-Rays of course could be blocked by Lead boxes. Not practical for aircraft or computers on ground - Military and Satellites cause X-Rays from Sun flares are common - All transistors/IC's are pre burned in to degrade them - Performance drops to say 60% and further bursts do not so much damage after that. High performance Chips just end up destroyed by X-Rays. Modern communications end up as trash.
EMP to take out the power grid is currently considered the main problem. Easy to take out all the control electronics - Replacement might take 6-8 months - BUTTTT the real problem are the Huge transformers - The largest of all - USA does not even make these anymore and they take 9-11 months to make and the waiting list world wide wood block USA for about 3 years from even starting to get the grid back up.
Can add Cosmic shit like Gamma radiation can be cranked out by EMP Bombs - One does not shield electronics from such. Power companies no its the stuff buried in the ground that end up as huge antennas that feed the EMP into the system.
I ain't no expert on this OTHER then wot happens to Satellites. Currently I have many many many Satellites that have been messed with by Cosmic shit and many are now out of service as a result.
Nor is it always the Silicon transistor/IC that is the problem. PC connections can develop a sorta of metallic fungus (Look up Purple Plague) Ion flow that ends up conductive short circuits. Insulators can end up conductive.
tl;dr?
EMP Atomic Bombs that are only designed to destroy electronics are more feared then the regular ones.
Anonymous K joined in and replied with this 10 years ago, 1 hour later, 21 hours after the original post[^] [v] #652,807
FuckAlms !vX8K53rFBI replied with this 10 years ago, 20 minutes later, 21 hours after the original post[^] [v] #652,812
Triptych !!/xkPL9myM joined in and replied with this 10 years ago, 20 hours later, 1 day after the original post[^] [v] #653,037
@652,680 (DasSheeple)
Would a Faraday cage not provide protection against an EMP?
Would a Faraday cage not provide protection against an EMP?
(Edited 13 seconds later.)
squeegee replied with this 10 years ago, 17 minutes later, 1 day after the original post[^] [v] #653,044
Syntax replied with this 10 years ago, 1 hour later, 1 day after the original post[^] [v] #653,077
@653,037 (Triptych !!/xkPL9myM)
YES IF you are asking about ordinary EMP. So stepping back from my yes for a moment. Faraday cages are terrific for protection against an electrostatic field. Limitations end up having to do with materials and how Ideal it is. Can it be grounded? How good is that ground when you get it? An ideal Faraday cage would conduct the electrostatic field around the box and in theory it may not need to be grounded. One can with nested shields do a terrific job of protection from electrostatic fields.
Class in Physics? The shield will have have inductance and electrons have inertia. The blocking will decrease above a certain frequency. So nesting or in the extreme; Superconductors - Anyway Bombs designed for bursts that cover a huge range of frequencies make for one hell of a challenge.
The Electro Magnetic field is far more difficult to deal with when designing the Faraday cage. For instance I used to design simple cages with Mu metal boxes to protect sensitive circuits from powerful motors with large magnetic fields. Very effective.
H-Bombs designed to specifically pass through Faraday cages - That is a problem for superconductors.
Transistors - Solar Cells -IC's - X-Rays which pass right through any cage OTHER than one made with Lead - I think you can see the problem quickly. Its heavy and Lead is a poor conductor compared to copper so one cannot use Lead to protect from the Electrostatic/Electromagnetic EMP. Also use of Lead in space re weight is just not practical for protection against X-Rays.
Gamma waves pass right through a Faraday shield -
Adding to the problem CURRENTLY - Not just those special H-Bombs - Huge contracts including a company locally that designs and manufactures High-Power Microwave weapons (HPM). Which of course keeps the companies that design super Faraday cages busy designing new state of the art Superconductor Faraday cages.
YES IF you are asking about ordinary EMP. So stepping back from my yes for a moment. Faraday cages are terrific for protection against an electrostatic field. Limitations end up having to do with materials and how Ideal it is. Can it be grounded? How good is that ground when you get it? An ideal Faraday cage would conduct the electrostatic field around the box and in theory it may not need to be grounded. One can with nested shields do a terrific job of protection from electrostatic fields.
Class in Physics? The shield will have have inductance and electrons have inertia. The blocking will decrease above a certain frequency. So nesting or in the extreme; Superconductors - Anyway Bombs designed for bursts that cover a huge range of frequencies make for one hell of a challenge.
The Electro Magnetic field is far more difficult to deal with when designing the Faraday cage. For instance I used to design simple cages with Mu metal boxes to protect sensitive circuits from powerful motors with large magnetic fields. Very effective.
H-Bombs designed to specifically pass through Faraday cages - That is a problem for superconductors.
Transistors - Solar Cells -IC's - X-Rays which pass right through any cage OTHER than one made with Lead - I think you can see the problem quickly. Its heavy and Lead is a poor conductor compared to copper so one cannot use Lead to protect from the Electrostatic/Electromagnetic EMP. Also use of Lead in space re weight is just not practical for protection against X-Rays.
Gamma waves pass right through a Faraday shield -
Adding to the problem CURRENTLY - Not just those special H-Bombs - Huge contracts including a company locally that designs and manufactures High-Power Microwave weapons (HPM). Which of course keeps the companies that design super Faraday cages busy designing new state of the art Superconductor Faraday cages.
DasSheeple replied with this 10 years ago, 1 hour later, 1 day after the original post[^] [v] #653,119
@653,037 (Triptych !!/xkPL9myM)
What @previous (Syntax) said.
Depends on the type of radiation and frequency... you can shield your house to block neighbours WiFi signal (when you look at it, it's just EM waves instead a strong pulse) with a simple mesh made out of metal. But other wavelengths wll pass through it, not to mention other kinds of radiation like already mentioned x-rays.
All in all, it's not feasible to shield everything against all kinds of EMPs. We're fucked in the case of a solar flair etc...
What @previous (Syntax) said.
Depends on the type of radiation and frequency... you can shield your house to block neighbours WiFi signal (when you look at it, it's just EM waves instead a strong pulse) with a simple mesh made out of metal. But other wavelengths wll pass through it, not to mention other kinds of radiation like already mentioned x-rays.
All in all, it's not feasible to shield everything against all kinds of EMPs. We're fucked in the case of a solar flair etc...
Syntax replied with this 10 years ago, 36 minutes later, 1 day after the original post[^] [v] #653,124
@previous (DasSheeple)
Trip might enjoy this - Quebec Canada and one hell of a mess for the rest of USA.
http://www.nasa.gov/topics/earth/features/sun_darkness.html 2001 & 2003 even larger flares but its effects were not directed squarely at Earth. Still huge radio blackouts - Satellite problems.
Solar Flares are always helping me keep my wallet in cash flow. Power company lab tests to protect the grid? They run tests and write papers. Doubt they are up to spending money NOW to protect the future of the grid without Gov demanding it.
Trip might enjoy this - Quebec Canada and one hell of a mess for the rest of USA.
http://www.nasa.gov/topics/earth/features/sun_darkness.html 2001 & 2003 even larger flares but its effects were not directed squarely at Earth. Still huge radio blackouts - Satellite problems.
Solar Flares are always helping me keep my wallet in cash flow. Power company lab tests to protect the grid? They run tests and write papers. Doubt they are up to spending money NOW to protect the future of the grid without Gov demanding it.
Anonymous M joined in and replied with this 10 years ago, 1 hour later, 1 day after the original post[^] [v] #653,135
If breaking bad had gone on long enough Heisenberg would have made one and used it on the white house.