Minichan

Do you have proof for that assertion? Thanks.

@previous (Metæ)

Assertions? Clearly i am directing a question for the atheists who choose to not believe in anything unproven. What the fuck are you talking about? Thanks.

Why should I believe in anything without evidence?

@previous (Broseph !!fxnDb+Ve4)

Unfair unfair bro. I asked first, why do you choose to believe in anything without evidence?

@582,456 (A)
I mean, do you have evidence that atheists don't believe in anything unproven?

@previous (Metæ)

Absolutely not. In fact i find that they do believe in unproven things, even though their only coherent critisism of religion is that its beliefs are unproven. Hypocrites really....

because we're not gullible morons and don't believe everything we hear? it's funny how religious folks can't even prove the efficacy of prayer so instead of using proof they use incredulity to try and shame people into group-think (i.e. conformity).

it just smacks of desperation.

I believe in things without proog

@582,461 (squeegee)

Yet you do believe in common held truths, like that, for example, people should not rape children?

@previous (A)
it can be proven that raping kids is psychologically harmful as well as physically harmful and causing harm is not a good thing, therefore people shouldn't rape children because there's no utility in it. at all.

pretty sure there's lots and lots of evidence that raping children is harmful.

yup. looks like it. should i dig up more evidence or is this sufficient?

why not
http://www.healthyplace.com/abuse/rape/effects-of-rape-psychological-and-physical-effects-of-rape/

@582,465 (squeegee)

Ah, so can it be proven that people should not do harmful things? Despite evidence that humans do harmful things all the time?

@582,468 (A)

> Ah, so can it be proven that people should not do harmful things?
uh, yeah

> Despite evidence that humans do harmful things all the time?
i think we've already established that people are morons, yes. people do stupid things despite proof they shouldn't.

now prove to me god and see how quickly i change my beliefs. go ahead.

(Edited 14 seconds later.)

@previous (squeegee)

Uh yeah? Okay well i will prove to you that god exists, here is my proof, uh yeah god exists.

I am only following your standards here in hopes you realize your errors. We have evidence that people do harmful things all the time, yet you choose to disregard that eidence and blindly believe that people ought to not do harmful things? Why?

@previous (A)
> We have evidence that people do harmful things all the time,
yup

> yet you choose to disregard that eidence
actually i didn't, i specifically said that "yes people do harmful things"

> and blindly believe that people ought to not do harmful things?
you lost me. Are you saying that because people do harmful things that it's okay to do harmful things? like the act of harming is self-justifiable? that harming as an end is okay as a means just because its an end?

are you a retard? you sound like a retard. try again though, this "proof of god of yours" sure is... obtuse. just go get god and come introduce him to me or something.

(Edited 1 minute later.)

@previous (squeegee)

Are you forgetting what you said? You said you said that you could prove that people should not do harmful things.

I am not saying that it is okay to do harmful things, i am saying that if you believe it to be a matter of truth, that people should not do harmful things.... then you are guilty of belief without evidence.

@previous (A)
and yet it can be proven

(Edited 2 minutes later.)

so anyway, this "proof for god" that you keep talking about. is where?

@582,475 (squeegee)

Yet you fail to explain how or why it can be proven. Its funny if you think about it, if it can be proven that something should not do something, would it not be amazing if it did what its been proven to not do?

@previous (squeegee)

I never talked about it. You simply asked me if i had any proof and i humored you and responded like you. If i were to do it again i would say yes it can be proven.

@previous (A)

> Yet you fail to explain how or why it can be proven.

try reading the link i posted
http://documents.routledge-interactive.s3.amazonaws.com/9781138793934/A2/Mill/MillHarm.pdf

(Edited 29 seconds later.)

@previous (squeegee)

lol that is a weak argument. Its like you are asking me to humor you. Okay here is my proof that god exists

http://www.dlshq.org/download/god_exists.pdf

@previous (A)
asking you to use logic and reason rather than blind faith in magic is a weak argument? lol. okay. you can believe if fairy dust all you want, bud, i choose to believe in rationalism and empiricism.

@previous (squeegee)

You are not asking me anything. You are just posting a link as proof that people should not harm people. Talking about empiricism, its empirically proven that people harm people. Thus only by belief can you assert that people should not harm people.

@previous (A)
nope, it can be proven that harming people is bad and it can be logically argued that you shouldn't harm people and that doesn't take a great leap of faith. you're really stretching this troll of yours. try a different tack, this one is a failure.

@previous (squeegee)
He tried this exact argument like a month ago.

@582,482 (squeegee)

It can indeed be proven that harming people harms people. Maybe it does not take a great leap of faith to believe harm is something we should avoid, nevertheless it takes courage and belief because if there is plenty of evidence about anything, its a history of people harming other people, contrary to our beliefs that such things should not happen.

Its like observing ants really, when ants start to treat each other harmfully, a human might say they ought to not do that. A logical person would respond, what do you mean? They are ants.


I have no beef with atheism, but only certain beliefs that a few atheists often have which is this fetish or preferance for evidence to tell you what is real or not real. However sometimes you have to go with your heart and if the heart tells you that people should not be violent then listen to it.

However its hard to get that message across to those certain atheists. Not only do they always react to my provocations in unpredictable ways (such as claiming to have evidence that people should not be harmful) they also generally consider any opposing views as trolling.

a better argument is "all the proof in god i need is the beauty in the world" or some other trite shit

@582,484 (A)
I don't get your position. So the only things that you can know are true are tautologies? e.g. the only things that are true are things like "cats are cats", "human beings are homo sapiens", and just generally things in the form A=A?

(Edited 1 minute later.)

@previous (Fake anon !ZkUt8arUCU)

My position is rather that sometimes you can only believe what is true. If i see it any where more then else its when it comes to morality. Its very easy to get people to claim their morality is a matter of truth. Like killing little babies is not wrong simply because you think it is wrong but that its a matter of truth that its wrong. So evidence isn't as important to me then what others might think it should be and my position is rather a defense against those certain people.

@582,484 (A)

> However sometimes you have to go with your heart and if the heart tells you [x] then listen to it.

ah, that's super compelling. i think you're right. my heart tells me that god DOES exist and that god hates faggits and blacks. i shouldn't attempt to derive truth from an extrapolated set of core principles that maximizes the overall happiness of everyone on earth and instead act on my heart and appeal to people's own judgement (which as you agree isn't very good considering people harm each other all the time.) Thanks for this enlightening conversation, i'm going to go splash acid in some girls face for looking sexy and making my heart hurt because she ignores me and instead wants an education and a life of her own. because what my heart tells me is absolutely correct and i don't need any kind of a system other than one that validates my feels.

i don't know what it is that you're trying to say because you're not making any sense. actually i do see what you're trying to say and you're wrong and none of this supports the idea that proof of god isn't a prerequisite for absolute belief. i guess you're trying to put atheism on the same footing and again try and place burden of proof on anyone but the person making the claim! it's not the fucking same to say you don't believe than it is to say that something IS!@

fucking prove to me that god exists, don't tell me i have to disprove it FOR you! and stop trying to make these stupid supporting arguments because they are based on nothing but your own incredulity!

@previous (squeegee)

Dude, i was never trying to prove to you that God exists nor was i telling you to put acid in people's faces. All i am trying to make you realize is that perhaps the deepest truths that exists are unprovable. You think its a matter of truth that killing little girls with acid attacks is wrong? I agree with you. However no proof exists for that and thus it empathies the crucial role belief plays in our lives.

Yeah, i agree, how can anyone not see the acid attacks for what they are? Well its called feelings, those attackers have rotten feelings cultivated in a society stagnated by war. That is why we must not just rely on our feelings to tell us what is wrong (because that can go wrong) but belief itself.

@582,489 (A)
I...don't follow.
@previous (A)
What do you mean by "proof"?

@previous (Fake anon !ZkUt8arUCU)

Well how can you sum up the radical atheistic movement? I would sum it up with one word- tragedy. Its not sad that they are atheists, its sad how the went into overdrive to justify atheism to their oppressors, they justified it with a fetish for evidence. Long story short that conflict ends up arriving to me, and i am told to not believe in anything without evidence. This alarmed me because always did i understand that morality is not provable with evidence yet still hold as a matter of truth.

What do i mean by proof? Well i guess empirical evidence.

@582,483 (kook !!mCVqftDha)
Yeah, I thought this shtick seemed familiar.

(Edited 17 seconds later.)

@previous (FuckAlms !vX8K53rFBI)

Well in my defense it is fun because they know i am right. Every time i pull this off there is a huge amount of absurd different reactions.

@582,491 (A)
if we're really appealing to our feelings then what i feel is that the concept of "god" as defined by mankind at this time is flawed and biased by our own imperfections. what i believe, based on my own personal feelings is that we aren't capable of understanding it at all right now and a big part of that reason is because i cringe when i hear or see people do things in the name of religion that are petty and cruel or dismissive of people with other beliefs. i don't believe in god in part because the concept doesn't make any sense and in part because the results of those beliefs don't make any sense and it makes me feel bad when i have to pretend i do believe when i fundamentally disagree with our conception of it. but it's easier to just pretend i believe act somewhat accordingly by celebrating the holidays and not care and just live my life without imposing my beliefs on others and trying to exercise ethical behavior because i do happen to believe there is a great utility in it despite the fact that sometimes i might prefer to act in an immoral manner. but i know better because i know that good behavior isn't going to cause me much trouble. which is ultimately what i want.

so if you're looking for a reason purely based on feelings then that's mine.

but like i said, proof for god would completely change my feelings on the matter. if god came down and said, "hey, guess what, go kill some infidels" i'd be all over that i'll tell you what. but since that's not going to happen i'm just going to hope people learn to accept that their personal feelings on the matter don't make a bit of difference without some very compelling reasons to conform to them.

@previous (squeegee)

Alright man. Good for you. But sometimes we have to impose our beliefs on others, radical disagreements of what is wrong or right have a limit within our society.

@582,493 (A)
Well you're a tiny bit right in that it's hard to prove moral claims purely on empirical grounds...but that's because moral claims are abstract and not empirical. Even things like "Torture is (morally) bad because it causes unnecessary suffering" rely on a non-empirical assumption, namely that "unnecessary suffering is (morally) bad". You can't exactly go out into the world and "do science" and find that sentence or principle hiding under a rock or in a math equation. General moral claims like that are supported primarily by logical evidence no matter how much people like Sam Harris et al try to dodge the issue.

Secondly, empirical evidence is not proof. Proof is usually reserved for math or other areas where you start with certain axioms, and using only those axioms and things derived from them to prove some conclusion. Empirical evidence gives rise to numerous competing explanations that are mutually exclusive and you need to rely on things like the principle of parsimony et al to choose the best among competing theories.

@previous (Fake anon !ZkUt8arUCU)

Now i do not understand your position. Elaborate?

@previous (A)

Anyway i need to sleep now. Thanks for the replies everyone and gn.

@previous (A)
Don't let the bed bugs bite.

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@582,458 (A)
I don't believe in anything without evidence.

> you foolish atheists
Good way to start a debate. You are really setting things up for a reasoned discussion, here.

@previous (RWBY Rhubarb !!iNo3FkiZx)
well, we've had this thread before as well so there's that

@582,469 (squeegee)
LOLOL

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