Topic: ITT: Reasons America will not raise the minimum wage
Anonymous A started this discussion 11 years ago #43,440
1. Because the military would be less appealing to the poor and desperateAnonymous B joined in and replied with this 11 years ago, 1 minute later[^] [v] #574,121
2. Because rich people are stingy.
Anonymous A (OP) replied with this 11 years ago, 3 minutes later, 4 minutes after the original post[^] [v] #574,122
3. Lobbyists define the absolute corruption in American politics. Lobbyists are paid by those who profit from low wages.
Killer Lettuce !!iNo3FkiZx joined in and replied with this 11 years ago, 21 minutes later, 26 minutes after the original post[^] [v] #574,124
4. The reptilian overlords forbid it.
Anonymous D joined in and replied with this 11 years ago, 4 hours later, 4 hours after the original post[^] [v] #574,165
kook !!mCVqftDha joined in and replied with this 11 years ago, 3 minutes later, 4 hours after the original post[^] [v] #574,168
What amount should it be?
Anonymous F joined in and replied with this 11 years ago, 33 minutes later, 5 hours after the original post[^] [v] #574,169
@previous (kook !!mCVqftDha)
That's gonna be tricky. They just raised the minimum wage in Los Angeles to $15. There was a fast food worker on the local news,single mom of 4, complaining that it was still not enough for her.
That's gonna be tricky. They just raised the minimum wage in Los Angeles to $15. There was a fast food worker on the local news,single mom of 4, complaining that it was still not enough for her.
(Edited 1 minute later.)
Catherine !TGirlYJKXM joined in and replied with this 11 years ago, 3 minutes later, 5 hours after the original post[^] [v] #574,171
At least our class problems aren't as bad as Ancient Rome's.
kook !!mCVqftDha replied with this 11 years ago, 33 minutes later, 6 hours after the original post[^] [v] #574,173
Anonymous H joined in and replied with this 11 years ago, 45 minutes later, 6 hours after the original post[^] [v] #574,174
squeegee joined in and replied with this 11 years ago, 2 minutes later, 6 hours after the original post[^] [v] #574,175
@574,169 (F)
she's an idiot. jobs like that, unskilled work, pays enough for one person to eat and live, barely. that she thinks it ought be enough to pay for 5 people means she's a fucking moron.
anyway, fast food companies are looking into ordering kiosks and food prep automation. her job won't exist is a couple of years at that rate. it probably finally costs less to R&D automation than hire minimum wage workers, so bye-bye entry level service jobs.
fucking idiots. learn a skill for god's sake.
she's an idiot. jobs like that, unskilled work, pays enough for one person to eat and live, barely. that she thinks it ought be enough to pay for 5 people means she's a fucking moron.
anyway, fast food companies are looking into ordering kiosks and food prep automation. her job won't exist is a couple of years at that rate. it probably finally costs less to R&D automation than hire minimum wage workers, so bye-bye entry level service jobs.
fucking idiots. learn a skill for god's sake.
(Edited 1 minute later.)
Killer Lettuce !!iNo3FkiZx replied with this 11 years ago, 3 minutes later, 6 hours after the original post[^] [v] #574,176
@previous (squeegee)
What are your skills?
Not being snide, I am genuinely curious. You once mentioned how you like to develop a wide range of skills.
What are your skills?
Not being snide, I am genuinely curious. You once mentioned how you like to develop a wide range of skills.
Broseph !!fxnDb+Ve4 joined in and replied with this 11 years ago, 48 seconds later, 6 hours after the original post[^] [v] #574,177
@574,175 (squeegee)
Or if you can't improve your skills and get a better job, don't have kids. You'd think she'd learn her lesson after the first one. Agree 100%. Having kids doesn't automatically entitle you to more money.
Or if you can't improve your skills and get a better job, don't have kids. You'd think she'd learn her lesson after the first one. Agree 100%. Having kids doesn't automatically entitle you to more money.
Anonymous K joined in and replied with this 11 years ago, 10 minutes later, 7 hours after the original post[^] [v] #574,180
@OP
Cities below are not part of America?
San Francisco (CA) $15.00 (2018) Yes I 2003; 2014 APPROVED BY THE VOTERS 142,000 / 23%
Seattle (WA) $15.00 (2018-2021) Yes L 2014 PASSED INTO LAW 102,000 / 21%
Los Angeles (CA) (hotels) $15.37 (2015-2016) Yes L 2014 PASSED INTO LAW
http://www.raisetheminimumwage.com/pages/minimum-wage-laws-and-proposals-for-major-u.s.-cities
Chicago (IL) $13.00 (2019) Yes L 2014 PASSED INTO LAW 379,000 / 28%
Oakland (CA) $12.25 (2015) Yes I 2014 APPROVED BY THE VOTERS 44,000 / 28%
Washington (DC) $11.50 (2016) Yes L 1992; 2004; 2013 PASSED INTO LAW not available
Current Proposals
New York (NY) $15.00 (2019) $11.50 (2015) Yes L Mayor de Blaio has proposed $15.00 Gov. Cuomo has proposed $11.50 1.25 million / 37%
Washington (DC) $15.00 Yes I Proposed ballot initiative filed for Nov. 2016 election not available
Los Angeles (CA) $15.25 (2019)$13.25 (2017) Yes L Mayor Garcetti has proposed $13.25Campaign is calling for $15.25 by 2019 567,000 / 37%
San Diego (CA) $11.50 (2017) Yes I 2016 City council passed ordinance in 2014 and opponents gathered signatures to force referendum vote in 2016 193,000 / 26.2%
Cities below are not part of America?
San Francisco (CA) $15.00 (2018) Yes I 2003; 2014 APPROVED BY THE VOTERS 142,000 / 23%
Seattle (WA) $15.00 (2018-2021) Yes L 2014 PASSED INTO LAW 102,000 / 21%
Los Angeles (CA) (hotels) $15.37 (2015-2016) Yes L 2014 PASSED INTO LAW
http://www.raisetheminimumwage.com/pages/minimum-wage-laws-and-proposals-for-major-u.s.-cities
Chicago (IL) $13.00 (2019) Yes L 2014 PASSED INTO LAW 379,000 / 28%
Oakland (CA) $12.25 (2015) Yes I 2014 APPROVED BY THE VOTERS 44,000 / 28%
Washington (DC) $11.50 (2016) Yes L 1992; 2004; 2013 PASSED INTO LAW not available
Current Proposals
New York (NY) $15.00 (2019) $11.50 (2015) Yes L Mayor de Blaio has proposed $15.00 Gov. Cuomo has proposed $11.50 1.25 million / 37%
Washington (DC) $15.00 Yes I Proposed ballot initiative filed for Nov. 2016 election not available
Los Angeles (CA) $15.25 (2019)$13.25 (2017) Yes L Mayor Garcetti has proposed $13.25Campaign is calling for $15.25 by 2019 567,000 / 37%
San Diego (CA) $11.50 (2017) Yes I 2016 City council passed ordinance in 2014 and opponents gathered signatures to force referendum vote in 2016 193,000 / 26.2%
squeegee replied with this 11 years ago, 1 minute later, 7 hours after the original post[^] [v] #574,181
@574,176 (Killer Lettuce !!iNo3FkiZx)
i know a technical trade that usually involves either an apprenticeship or years of school. that keeps me employeed, what get's me promoted is other skills i've learned over the years, and at times i wear different hats such as graphic design, web design, marketing, pr, and book keeping.
right now i'm learning about social media campaigns and New Marketing and am about to kick off an entire media campaign involving photography, video, and blogging. it's business to business and business to consumer marketing campaigns.
i also spearheaded SEO and have helped to improve our rate of growth over the last 5 years by 10% a year, and last year it was 15% becuase of "teh webs searches."
and that's only a small part of what i've done over the years to improve my skills and keep my ass valuable and employeed.
i don't even really do what i was originally trained to do! i'm moved over to more of the business side or management side now, but i'm still very hands on in the shop when we need an extra set of hands or they want something machined by me (i'm pretty good at what i was trained to do.)
i know a technical trade that usually involves either an apprenticeship or years of school. that keeps me employeed, what get's me promoted is other skills i've learned over the years, and at times i wear different hats such as graphic design, web design, marketing, pr, and book keeping.
right now i'm learning about social media campaigns and New Marketing and am about to kick off an entire media campaign involving photography, video, and blogging. it's business to business and business to consumer marketing campaigns.
i also spearheaded SEO and have helped to improve our rate of growth over the last 5 years by 10% a year, and last year it was 15% becuase of "teh webs searches."
and that's only a small part of what i've done over the years to improve my skills and keep my ass valuable and employeed.
i don't even really do what i was originally trained to do! i'm moved over to more of the business side or management side now, but i'm still very hands on in the shop when we need an extra set of hands or they want something machined by me (i'm pretty good at what i was trained to do.)
kook !!mCVqftDha replied with this 11 years ago, 1 minute later, 7 hours after the original post[^] [v] #574,182
How much do you make, op?
squeegee replied with this 11 years ago, 3 minutes later, 7 hours after the original post[^] [v] #574,183
oh yeah, so the social media marketing shit means i'n about to read 1000 pages of books on photography and video as well as video editing. i'll probably get to buy some adobe software and get proficient with it.
but first i gotta learn focal length shit and how to take high quality shots. so yeah, it's good to always be learning.
in fact i'm learning even more about wordpress than i ever thought i'd need to know right now.
but first i gotta learn focal length shit and how to take high quality shots. so yeah, it's good to always be learning.
in fact i'm learning even more about wordpress than i ever thought i'd need to know right now.
Anonymous F replied with this 11 years ago, 2 minutes later, 7 hours after the original post[^] [v] #574,184
@574,173 (kook !!mCVqftDha)
It's really insane. Now other employees in the city will have to raise their wages for skilled workers.
@574,175 (squeegee)
They'll go fully automated or just shut down completely. A walmart super center in Pico Rivera also in L.A. County, announced without warning that it was closing its doors laying off hundreds of workers a few months ago. They claimed it was due to plumbing problems, but it's generally accepted that its because the workers were trying to unionize.
It's really insane. Now other employees in the city will have to raise their wages for skilled workers.
@574,175 (squeegee)
They'll go fully automated or just shut down completely. A walmart super center in Pico Rivera also in L.A. County, announced without warning that it was closing its doors laying off hundreds of workers a few months ago. They claimed it was due to plumbing problems, but it's generally accepted that its because the workers were trying to unionize.
squeegee joined in and replied with this 11 years ago, 2 hours later, 9 hours after the original post[^] [v] #574,210
@previous (F)
> They'll go fully automated or just shut down completely.
it'll be even worse for franchises. you're not just dealing with one big corporate entity, you're also dealing with tens of thousands of "small business owners" any one of whom could decide it's not profitable enough anymore and they'll just close up shop and invest in real-estate. or something. yes their are "corporate stores", but i'm not sure how much loss they can absorb from losing their franchises before it impacts their bottom line too much. but absolutely, a company like mcDonalds could certainly go tits up, which is why i think they are looking into the kiosks and food prep equipment. They already have a soda dispensing machine that drops a cup, fills it with ice and pours the correct beverage, and i read somewhere that allowed the stores that use it to operate with one less person a shift because everyone had extra time to do little things, like be bagging fries or operating the register. i'm sure with kiosks they'll be able to shave off 2 or 3 people a shift, maybe more. i heard that they are actually looking at putting the drive through ordering "job" off on indian call centers. so you when you talk to the disembodied voice on the drive through speaker it's a dude in bangalore putting your order online and submitting it to the store! it's nuts. they're going to have to cut staff down to 2 people, a manager and a fucking systems engineer to operate all the advanced 3D food printers and internet servers they're going to be putting in along side the french fry robot.
now, that dude is probably working for more than $15 an hour, too. but yeah, we'll be losing a lot of "low wage entry level jobs" and we'll be gaining a few "high paying experience required jobs" in their place. watch.
it's just that people who want to "camp out" and work a job like that as a career are fucking it up for people that want to use a job like that as a stepping stone to a better service industry job. the job is going to just disappear. i guess it's just as well though. hopefully we'll eventually end up with just a huge worker surplus and it'll be worth our while to bring some manufacturing back. of course that'll never happen if the minimum wage is set stupidly high. more than doubling it would just make the decision for a whole lot of business owners to invest in a different kind of game.
> They'll go fully automated or just shut down completely.
it'll be even worse for franchises. you're not just dealing with one big corporate entity, you're also dealing with tens of thousands of "small business owners" any one of whom could decide it's not profitable enough anymore and they'll just close up shop and invest in real-estate. or something. yes their are "corporate stores", but i'm not sure how much loss they can absorb from losing their franchises before it impacts their bottom line too much. but absolutely, a company like mcDonalds could certainly go tits up, which is why i think they are looking into the kiosks and food prep equipment. They already have a soda dispensing machine that drops a cup, fills it with ice and pours the correct beverage, and i read somewhere that allowed the stores that use it to operate with one less person a shift because everyone had extra time to do little things, like be bagging fries or operating the register. i'm sure with kiosks they'll be able to shave off 2 or 3 people a shift, maybe more. i heard that they are actually looking at putting the drive through ordering "job" off on indian call centers. so you when you talk to the disembodied voice on the drive through speaker it's a dude in bangalore putting your order online and submitting it to the store! it's nuts. they're going to have to cut staff down to 2 people, a manager and a fucking systems engineer to operate all the advanced 3D food printers and internet servers they're going to be putting in along side the french fry robot.
now, that dude is probably working for more than $15 an hour, too. but yeah, we'll be losing a lot of "low wage entry level jobs" and we'll be gaining a few "high paying experience required jobs" in their place. watch.
it's just that people who want to "camp out" and work a job like that as a career are fucking it up for people that want to use a job like that as a stepping stone to a better service industry job. the job is going to just disappear. i guess it's just as well though. hopefully we'll eventually end up with just a huge worker surplus and it'll be worth our while to bring some manufacturing back. of course that'll never happen if the minimum wage is set stupidly high. more than doubling it would just make the decision for a whole lot of business owners to invest in a different kind of game.
(Edited 25 seconds later.)
Anonymous A (OP) replied with this 11 years ago, 2 hours later, 12 hours after the original post[^] [v] #574,235
kook !!mCVqftDha replied with this 11 years ago, 10 minutes later, 12 hours after the original post[^] [v] #574,244
Anonymous A (OP) replied with this 11 years ago, 4 minutes later, 12 hours after the original post[^] [v] #574,247
@previous (kook !!mCVqftDha)
I'm a contract welder, amongst other things. I take a fair bit of time off between jobs because the pay is $65-75 an hour generally, so I can afford to relax a bit.
I'm a contract welder, amongst other things. I take a fair bit of time off between jobs because the pay is $65-75 an hour generally, so I can afford to relax a bit.
kook !!mCVqftDha replied with this 11 years ago, 1 minute later, 12 hours after the original post[^] [v] #574,251
Anonymous A (OP) replied with this 11 years ago, 53 seconds later, 12 hours after the original post[^] [v] #574,252
squeegee replied with this 11 years ago, 29 minutes later, 12 hours after the original post[^] [v] #574,258
@previous (A)
that's around $30,600
avg. 1700ish working hours a year
do you think that's enough? that single mom of 4 will only be able to afford one more kid :/
that's around $30,600
avg. 1700ish working hours a year
do you think that's enough? that single mom of 4 will only be able to afford one more kid :/
(Edited 14 seconds later.)
kook !!mCVqftDha replied with this 11 years ago, 5 minutes later, 12 hours after the original post[^] [v] #574,259
Anonymous A (OP) replied with this 11 years ago, 58 minutes later, 13 hours after the original post[^] [v] #574,278
@574,258 (squeegee)
I think its a living wage
@previous (kook !!mCVqftDha)
idk, $22/hr or something?
I think its a living wage
@previous (kook !!mCVqftDha)
idk, $22/hr or something?
kook !!mCVqftDha replied with this 11 years ago, 58 minutes later, 14 hours after the original post[^] [v] #574,296
@previous (A)
I'm happy with that number, but not happy that its only four dollars more then McDonalds.
I'm happy with that number, but not happy that its only four dollars more then McDonalds.
Anonymous M joined in and replied with this 11 years ago, 5 minutes later, 15 hours after the original post[^] [v] #574,297
Anonymous A (OP) replied with this 11 years ago, 10 minutes later, 15 hours after the original post[^] [v] #574,300
vocalon !74TdoRkjCc joined in and replied with this 11 years ago, 9 minutes later, 15 hours after the original post[^] [v] #574,302
ITT: Clearly a system in which the only way to live is to be a wage slave for the rest of your natural life has no flaws in it whatsoever.
squeegee replied with this 11 years ago, 23 minutes later, 15 hours after the original post[^] [v] #574,307
@574,278 (A)
so i would have to pay them the wages of a skilled worker and also have to give them on the job training? that's more than a qualified bicycle mechanic makes. that's more than a janitor or an experienced housekeeper. that's close to the entry level pay for an auto mechanic who's gone to automotive school. http://www1.salary.com/Skilled-and-Trades-Salaries.html
here's a great one, General Laborer, $29,000 http://www1.salary.com/General-Laborer-Salary.html
> high school diploma or its equivalent with 0-2 years of experience in the field or in a related area. Has knowledge of commonly-used concepts, practices, and procedures within a particular field
even that is looking for people with experience and training. but something like this isn't far off from fast food work, most of these (except mechanic) aren't far off from the kinds of skills you learn in entry level jobs. you learn to show up and do your job and learn what you need to to perform. 6 months later you'll be ready to look for other and more challenging work that pays better.
i'm not saying that we shouldn't raise minimum wage, we totally should, simply because of inflation. but i think that much is a little unrealistic.
when a hairstylist who pays for 2 years of beauty school only earns 25,000 on average it's a little idealistic to say an unskilled and untrained day-one minimum wage worker gets $30,000 for forgetting my ketchup and handing me a dripping soda cup.
in my mind the problem isn't minimum wage jobs, it people not having the mobility to get out of it. it's a transportation and education problem and one that be helped greatly by improving community services to the people who need help the most. we could certainly cut defense spending and open a bunch of day cares in the ghettos and that would help kids stay in school and be more qualified to actually do something than their parents who can't escape poverty. it would also help people escape by giving them more time to actually work and do stuff like job training.
but now i'm getting idealistic. idk, i do agree though, minimum wage isn't really a living wage,
but i think i'm okay with that because i don't really thing those jobs are a living job, you know?
it's like a job you take to learn to do jobs. like an internship for working, idk.
so i would have to pay them the wages of a skilled worker and also have to give them on the job training? that's more than a qualified bicycle mechanic makes. that's more than a janitor or an experienced housekeeper. that's close to the entry level pay for an auto mechanic who's gone to automotive school. http://www1.salary.com/Skilled-and-Trades-Salaries.html
here's a great one, General Laborer, $29,000 http://www1.salary.com/General-Laborer-Salary.html
> high school diploma or its equivalent with 0-2 years of experience in the field or in a related area. Has knowledge of commonly-used concepts, practices, and procedures within a particular field
even that is looking for people with experience and training. but something like this isn't far off from fast food work, most of these (except mechanic) aren't far off from the kinds of skills you learn in entry level jobs. you learn to show up and do your job and learn what you need to to perform. 6 months later you'll be ready to look for other and more challenging work that pays better.
i'm not saying that we shouldn't raise minimum wage, we totally should, simply because of inflation. but i think that much is a little unrealistic.
when a hairstylist who pays for 2 years of beauty school only earns 25,000 on average it's a little idealistic to say an unskilled and untrained day-one minimum wage worker gets $30,000 for forgetting my ketchup and handing me a dripping soda cup.
in my mind the problem isn't minimum wage jobs, it people not having the mobility to get out of it. it's a transportation and education problem and one that be helped greatly by improving community services to the people who need help the most. we could certainly cut defense spending and open a bunch of day cares in the ghettos and that would help kids stay in school and be more qualified to actually do something than their parents who can't escape poverty. it would also help people escape by giving them more time to actually work and do stuff like job training.
but now i'm getting idealistic. idk, i do agree though, minimum wage isn't really a living wage,
but i think i'm okay with that because i don't really thing those jobs are a living job, you know?
it's like a job you take to learn to do jobs. like an internship for working, idk.
squeegee double-posted this 11 years ago, 1 minute later, 15 hours after the original post[^] [v] #574,308
@574,302 (vocalon !74TdoRkjCc)
oh, you're going to teach us all how to live without working, huh? no thanks, having a job is actually fun. and so is money.
oh, you're going to teach us all how to live without working, huh? no thanks, having a job is actually fun. and so is money.
(Edited 34 seconds later.)
vocalon !74TdoRkjCc replied with this 11 years ago, 59 seconds later, 15 hours after the original post[^] [v] #574,309
@previous (squeegee)
have you ever accused me of being brainwashed by tumblr? i don't remember. but if you did, it'd be beautifully ironic seeing how ignorant you are towards your own failure to recognize how the systems you exist in influence your thought patterns.
have you ever accused me of being brainwashed by tumblr? i don't remember. but if you did, it'd be beautifully ironic seeing how ignorant you are towards your own failure to recognize how the systems you exist in influence your thought patterns.
kook !!mCVqftDha replied with this 11 years ago, 1 minute later, 15 hours after the original post[^] [v] #574,310
squeegee replied with this 11 years ago, 24 seconds later, 15 hours after the original post[^] [v] #574,311
@574,309 (vocalon !74TdoRkjCc)
embracing is not the same thing as being brainwashed. but thinking everyone is blind because they don't see the world through your lenses is kinda like being brainwashed.
so yeah, "embracing the system is not the same thing as being controlled by it," - said every sociopathic CEO in the world
embracing is not the same thing as being brainwashed. but thinking everyone is blind because they don't see the world through your lenses is kinda like being brainwashed.
so yeah, "embracing the system is not the same thing as being controlled by it," - said every sociopathic CEO in the world
(Edited 2 minutes later.)
vocalon !74TdoRkjCc replied with this 11 years ago, 1 minute later, 15 hours after the original post[^] [v] #574,313
squeegee replied with this 11 years ago, 11 minutes later, 16 hours after the original post[^] [v] #574,316
@previous (vocalon !74TdoRkjCc)
it weeds out the incapable, who would be undesirable, yes. but, there is still, currently, a pay-grade for the incapable, and it's minimum wage. it's not much, but it's at least something other than just a handout. imo we certainly shouldn't totally price everyone out of a job. it may be harsh, but there are just some people who's abilities aren't worth paying much for unless they are improved. by either experience or education.
and like i said, the real problem isn't entry level earnings, it's mobility and education that's the real problem. fix those and minimum wage work will go back to being mostly for teenagers to work part-time while in school and quit being for grown adults to settle into as a fucking career.
it weeds out the incapable, who would be undesirable, yes. but, there is still, currently, a pay-grade for the incapable, and it's minimum wage. it's not much, but it's at least something other than just a handout. imo we certainly shouldn't totally price everyone out of a job. it may be harsh, but there are just some people who's abilities aren't worth paying much for unless they are improved. by either experience or education.
and like i said, the real problem isn't entry level earnings, it's mobility and education that's the real problem. fix those and minimum wage work will go back to being mostly for teenagers to work part-time while in school and quit being for grown adults to settle into as a fucking career.
Anonymous B replied with this 11 years ago, 5 minutes later, 16 hours after the original post[^] [v] #574,317
Anonymous O joined in and replied with this 11 years ago, 4 minutes later, 16 hours after the original post[^] [v] #574,319
Anonymous P joined in and replied with this 11 years ago, 2 minutes later, 16 hours after the original post[^] [v] #574,321
Anonymous O replied with this 11 years ago, 2 minutes later, 16 hours after the original post[^] [v] #574,322
squeegee replied with this 11 years ago, 5 minutes later, 16 hours after the original post[^] [v] #574,324
@574,317 (B)
usually because of situations that are out of their control(like they are born into poverty), or, bad decisions that they make, like they have 4 kids and have no other support than a minimum wage job.
i posted about this recently, the problem is really an insurmountable community problem with poverty and it exists as a self sustaining cycle. it could be broken with an investment in services and education. but over-valuing unessential and unskilled work will just make those jobs disappear. but, if people were more educated and had the mobility problem fixed then that job wouldn't be literally the only job available for people stuck locally to take.
i believe that people have a right to pursue a better life for themsleves, but they don't have a right to expect a better life be given to them. as far as a basic, decent life, yes, but that's also highly subjective. i believe there are plenty of programs available for people who need assistance, and i believe that we can do an even better job of ensuring that basic decent life for everyone by making sure everyone has similar opportunities and that communities themselves aren't an obstacle.
usually because of situations that are out of their control(like they are born into poverty), or, bad decisions that they make, like they have 4 kids and have no other support than a minimum wage job.
i posted about this recently, the problem is really an insurmountable community problem with poverty and it exists as a self sustaining cycle. it could be broken with an investment in services and education. but over-valuing unessential and unskilled work will just make those jobs disappear. but, if people were more educated and had the mobility problem fixed then that job wouldn't be literally the only job available for people stuck locally to take.
i believe that people have a right to pursue a better life for themsleves, but they don't have a right to expect a better life be given to them. as far as a basic, decent life, yes, but that's also highly subjective. i believe there are plenty of programs available for people who need assistance, and i believe that we can do an even better job of ensuring that basic decent life for everyone by making sure everyone has similar opportunities and that communities themselves aren't an obstacle.
(Edited 40 seconds later.)
Anonymous B replied with this 11 years ago, 19 minutes later, 16 hours after the original post[^] [v] #574,326
@previous (squeegee)
I think that government Socialism should increase to help the needy, hence I will vote for Sanders.
I think that government Socialism should increase to help the needy, hence I will vote for Sanders.
vocalon !74TdoRkjCc replied with this 11 years ago, 4 minutes later, 16 hours after the original post[^] [v] #574,327
@574,316 (squeegee)
then why are the incapable not working minimum wage jobs and instead resorting to the hindering system of SSDI? is it perhaps because they are incapable? or is it because prejudices against the incapable are ingrained in every bit of design put out, whether intentional or not? or perhaps it's because "incapable" implies permanent states of disability, such as amputation, developmental disabilities which hinder the abilities to learn, and treats chronic illnesses and invisible disabilities such as Ehler-Danlos or asthma as "laziness"?
and this isn't even opening the can of worms that is fatigue-inducing mental illness or god forbid, psychotic disorders.
even the jobs for the "incapable" are going out of their way to exclude them, and if you don't have money, you aren't allowed to have anything, and this compounds as well because rent in most places is far more than minimum wage pay, which... i shouldn't have to explain this to someone who embraces the system. if you're going to embrace it, you should probably know how it works, right?
a friend of mine, a really talented musician, lives in the LA suburbs, and she was homeless for a good 2 years because no one would hire her because she was trans and homeless. and while she COULD go to court for discrimination against trans people, since it's california, one of like, 3 states with clearly stated trans discrimination laws, she didn't because the school system doesn't teach you shit about how to work within the legal system.
and that needs to change too, because it's 20fucking15, data retention while punishing failure with potentially ruining someones life isn't the best way to learn things anymore
then why are the incapable not working minimum wage jobs and instead resorting to the hindering system of SSDI? is it perhaps because they are incapable? or is it because prejudices against the incapable are ingrained in every bit of design put out, whether intentional or not? or perhaps it's because "incapable" implies permanent states of disability, such as amputation, developmental disabilities which hinder the abilities to learn, and treats chronic illnesses and invisible disabilities such as Ehler-Danlos or asthma as "laziness"?
and this isn't even opening the can of worms that is fatigue-inducing mental illness or god forbid, psychotic disorders.
even the jobs for the "incapable" are going out of their way to exclude them, and if you don't have money, you aren't allowed to have anything, and this compounds as well because rent in most places is far more than minimum wage pay, which... i shouldn't have to explain this to someone who embraces the system. if you're going to embrace it, you should probably know how it works, right?
a friend of mine, a really talented musician, lives in the LA suburbs, and she was homeless for a good 2 years because no one would hire her because she was trans and homeless. and while she COULD go to court for discrimination against trans people, since it's california, one of like, 3 states with clearly stated trans discrimination laws, she didn't because the school system doesn't teach you shit about how to work within the legal system.
and that needs to change too, because it's 20fucking15, data retention while punishing failure with potentially ruining someones life isn't the best way to learn things anymore
kook !!mCVqftDha replied with this 11 years ago, 5 minutes later, 16 hours after the original post[^] [v] #574,331
vocalon !74TdoRkjCc replied with this 11 years ago, 3 minutes later, 16 hours after the original post[^] [v] #574,332
@previous (kook !!mCVqftDha)
i dont remember exactly but it was some kind of cleaning job w/ aramark
googling it actually shows they have a past of discrimination?
dont work for aramark kids
i dont remember exactly but it was some kind of cleaning job w/ aramark
googling it actually shows they have a past of discrimination?
dont work for aramark kids
Anonymous A (OP) replied with this 11 years ago, 22 minutes later, 17 hours after the original post[^] [v] #574,336
squeegee replied with this 11 years ago, 27 minutes later, 17 hours after the original post[^] [v] #574,341
@574,327 (vocalon !74TdoRkjCc)
> then why are the incapable not working minimum wage jobs and instead resorting to the hindering system of SSDI?
mostly because SSDI is a system that is abused because the realities of insular poverty over-burdens disability programs because of the problems systemic to that kind of poverty. that makes it weak at helping the people it's meant to help. simply put, people are incapable of getting out. something ties them to that community, like family responsibility or a flat lack of resources. Since there are very few jobs actually in the ghettos people have to travel to work. That eats up a lot of time and/or money in transportation costs. It's hard to keep kids in school when you have to ride a bus 4 hours a day to get to work across town. and since they tend to come from a similar background they tend to not be highly educated anyway, therefor they don't earn much, can't mobilize too far, and that seriously limits their social output.
one very attractive option when faced with the kind of poverty that's hard to escape from is SSDI. you can quit working so hard just to work and you can focus more on things like child-care so older kids can go to school and not have to babysit while mom is on a bus going to work.
once you're stuck there, getting out is hard because the community weighs on you like a cement block, the best bet is to invest very hevily in the next generation and improve services for the people who are stuck now. giving them better assistance would alleviate their reliance on disability as a solution to a community problem.
> is it perhaps because they are incapable? or is it because prejudices against the incapable are ingrained in every bit of design put out, whether intentional or not? or perhaps it's because "incapable" implies permanent states of disability, such as amputation, developmental disabilities which hinder the abilities to learn, and treats chronic illnesses and invisible disabilities such as Ehler-Danlos or asthma as "laziness"?
i am not talking about the disabled, i'm talking about people who are incapable of working because of problems outside of their control based in their community. and like i said, if there wasn't an over-reliance on disability to solve community problems then SSID programs would be able to focus on people with disabilities that don't come from being poor.
> and this isn't even opening the can of worms that is fatigue-inducing mental illness or god forbid, psychotic disorders.
i thought we were talking about poverty, not mental illness. anyway i never even mentioned those things or gave context for them, don't put words into my mouth.
> even the jobs for the "incapable" are going out of their way to exclude them, and if you don't have money, you aren't allowed to have anything, and this compounds as well because rent in most places is far more than minimum wage pay, which... i shouldn't have to explain this to someone who embraces the system. if you're going to embrace it, you should probably know how it works, right?
that's exactly my point, people who live in poverty tend to not be surrounded by lots of jobs. again, a community problem. they lack services essential to drive business and it's because it's not attractive for businesses to move there. in fact, it can be a bad idea for them to which is why you tend to find very low paying jobs in the ghetto. if you were to improve the community, you'd bring more and better jobs which would bring more and better pay and then people in that community will be able to enjoy all the things that more affluent communities have. but if people are stuck in the middle of the ghetto and can't afford the gas (or the car for that matter) or bus fare to get far enough away to find work then you're stuck. and if you then make bad decisions you'll never leave and the cycle repeats. only a massive injection of money directly into community services that will help the next generation escape will alleviate poverty. in the future.
what we got now we're fucking stuck with and the only thing we can do is manage the problem (because it's too expensive to eliminate it) and try to lessen it in the future.
> a friend of mine, a really talented musician, lives in the LA suburbs, and she was homeless for a good 2 years because no one would hire her because she was trans and homeless. and while she COULD go to court for discrimination against trans people, since it's california, one of like, 3 states with clearly stated trans discrimination laws, she didn't because the school system doesn't teach you shit about how to work within the legal system.
you need an address to get a job, though. it's like part of the application is having an address. at least a mailing address. i think her being homeless was probably enough to make employers think twice about that hire. also musician isn't exactly an easy to make-it-in profession. if we're going for anecdotes, i knew a talented musician too, he could play literally anything from classical guitar to punk rock. worked for tips. on the street. down in austin, too, like the indie music capital. but paying gigs didn't pay much apparently. anyway, i also have a real friend that fiddles professionally now and tours with a well know country western band. it's a touch business, i'm not surprised to hear yet another musician related sob story. now, if it was that she'd gotten a degree in accounting and couldn't get a job because she's trans, okay, then that would sound like a lawsuit. but homeless person? that doesn't sound like a stable... new hire.
> and that needs to change too, because it's 20fucking15, data retention while punishing failure with potentially ruining someones life isn't the best way to learn things anymore
working is about performance though, data retention is only a small part of it. and if people don't perform good work then the only obvious solution is to replace them with someone that can. but literally the way to prevent that it to hire qualified people to begin with and not hire every special snowflake that lives on the curb.
> then why are the incapable not working minimum wage jobs and instead resorting to the hindering system of SSDI?
mostly because SSDI is a system that is abused because the realities of insular poverty over-burdens disability programs because of the problems systemic to that kind of poverty. that makes it weak at helping the people it's meant to help. simply put, people are incapable of getting out. something ties them to that community, like family responsibility or a flat lack of resources. Since there are very few jobs actually in the ghettos people have to travel to work. That eats up a lot of time and/or money in transportation costs. It's hard to keep kids in school when you have to ride a bus 4 hours a day to get to work across town. and since they tend to come from a similar background they tend to not be highly educated anyway, therefor they don't earn much, can't mobilize too far, and that seriously limits their social output.
one very attractive option when faced with the kind of poverty that's hard to escape from is SSDI. you can quit working so hard just to work and you can focus more on things like child-care so older kids can go to school and not have to babysit while mom is on a bus going to work.
once you're stuck there, getting out is hard because the community weighs on you like a cement block, the best bet is to invest very hevily in the next generation and improve services for the people who are stuck now. giving them better assistance would alleviate their reliance on disability as a solution to a community problem.
> is it perhaps because they are incapable? or is it because prejudices against the incapable are ingrained in every bit of design put out, whether intentional or not? or perhaps it's because "incapable" implies permanent states of disability, such as amputation, developmental disabilities which hinder the abilities to learn, and treats chronic illnesses and invisible disabilities such as Ehler-Danlos or asthma as "laziness"?
i am not talking about the disabled, i'm talking about people who are incapable of working because of problems outside of their control based in their community. and like i said, if there wasn't an over-reliance on disability to solve community problems then SSID programs would be able to focus on people with disabilities that don't come from being poor.
> and this isn't even opening the can of worms that is fatigue-inducing mental illness or god forbid, psychotic disorders.
i thought we were talking about poverty, not mental illness. anyway i never even mentioned those things or gave context for them, don't put words into my mouth.
> even the jobs for the "incapable" are going out of their way to exclude them, and if you don't have money, you aren't allowed to have anything, and this compounds as well because rent in most places is far more than minimum wage pay, which... i shouldn't have to explain this to someone who embraces the system. if you're going to embrace it, you should probably know how it works, right?
that's exactly my point, people who live in poverty tend to not be surrounded by lots of jobs. again, a community problem. they lack services essential to drive business and it's because it's not attractive for businesses to move there. in fact, it can be a bad idea for them to which is why you tend to find very low paying jobs in the ghetto. if you were to improve the community, you'd bring more and better jobs which would bring more and better pay and then people in that community will be able to enjoy all the things that more affluent communities have. but if people are stuck in the middle of the ghetto and can't afford the gas (or the car for that matter) or bus fare to get far enough away to find work then you're stuck. and if you then make bad decisions you'll never leave and the cycle repeats. only a massive injection of money directly into community services that will help the next generation escape will alleviate poverty. in the future.
what we got now we're fucking stuck with and the only thing we can do is manage the problem (because it's too expensive to eliminate it) and try to lessen it in the future.
> a friend of mine, a really talented musician, lives in the LA suburbs, and she was homeless for a good 2 years because no one would hire her because she was trans and homeless. and while she COULD go to court for discrimination against trans people, since it's california, one of like, 3 states with clearly stated trans discrimination laws, she didn't because the school system doesn't teach you shit about how to work within the legal system.
you need an address to get a job, though. it's like part of the application is having an address. at least a mailing address. i think her being homeless was probably enough to make employers think twice about that hire. also musician isn't exactly an easy to make-it-in profession. if we're going for anecdotes, i knew a talented musician too, he could play literally anything from classical guitar to punk rock. worked for tips. on the street. down in austin, too, like the indie music capital. but paying gigs didn't pay much apparently. anyway, i also have a real friend that fiddles professionally now and tours with a well know country western band. it's a touch business, i'm not surprised to hear yet another musician related sob story. now, if it was that she'd gotten a degree in accounting and couldn't get a job because she's trans, okay, then that would sound like a lawsuit. but homeless person? that doesn't sound like a stable... new hire.
> and that needs to change too, because it's 20fucking15, data retention while punishing failure with potentially ruining someones life isn't the best way to learn things anymore
working is about performance though, data retention is only a small part of it. and if people don't perform good work then the only obvious solution is to replace them with someone that can. but literally the way to prevent that it to hire qualified people to begin with and not hire every special snowflake that lives on the curb.
squeegee double-posted this 11 years ago, 16 minutes later, 17 hours after the original post[^] [v] #574,342
@574,336 (A)
depends where you live. living wage varies state to state, county to county.
dallas' living wage is around 21,000. that's certainly more than minimum wage, but certainly in the grasp of workers who've got a couple years experience.
http://livingwage.mit.edu/counties/48113
now monteray california is more, it's 25,500
http://livingwage.mit.edu/counties/06053
Ney York county, manhattan, yeah, it's 29,700 as a living wage.
http://livingwage.mit.edu/counties/36061
but! harrison county in Ohio is only 18,000! that's literally less than the national average for a Fast Food cook ($18,800)
http://livingwage.mit.edu/counties/39067
http://www1.salary.com/Fast-Food-Cook-Salary.html
but yeah, i wouldn't expect an inexperienced minimum wage worker to earn a living-wage in beverly hills and like have a house and a car and kids and shit.
depends where you live. living wage varies state to state, county to county.
dallas' living wage is around 21,000. that's certainly more than minimum wage, but certainly in the grasp of workers who've got a couple years experience.
http://livingwage.mit.edu/counties/48113
now monteray california is more, it's 25,500
http://livingwage.mit.edu/counties/06053
Ney York county, manhattan, yeah, it's 29,700 as a living wage.
http://livingwage.mit.edu/counties/36061
but! harrison county in Ohio is only 18,000! that's literally less than the national average for a Fast Food cook ($18,800)
http://livingwage.mit.edu/counties/39067
http://www1.salary.com/Fast-Food-Cook-Salary.html
but yeah, i wouldn't expect an inexperienced minimum wage worker to earn a living-wage in beverly hills and like have a house and a car and kids and shit.
(Edited 1 minute later.)
squeegee triple-posted this 11 years ago, 18 minutes later, 18 hours after the original post[^] [v] #574,344
i am glad that come counties are raising their wages up pretty high, it'll be an interesting experiment. i'm betting that many of those jobs will just leave and poverty in those cities will actually grow or just get worse for the people currently affected.
texas probably won't be trying that anytime soon, i wouldn't imagine, but i do expect to see moderate raises in the neighborhood of a few to several dollars.
texas probably won't be trying that anytime soon, i wouldn't imagine, but i do expect to see moderate raises in the neighborhood of a few to several dollars.
Anonymous A (OP) replied with this 11 years ago, 34 minutes later, 18 hours after the original post[^] [v] #574,347
@previous (squeegee)
The difference for me in being paid $68 compared to $65 per hour isn't even noticeable, a few more or less hours here or there makes more difference. But for those paid less than $15, even $2 more is the difference that can give children good food, or help people get out of high interest debt sooner.
The difference for me in being paid $68 compared to $65 per hour isn't even noticeable, a few more or less hours here or there makes more difference. But for those paid less than $15, even $2 more is the difference that can give children good food, or help people get out of high interest debt sooner.
squeegee replied with this 11 years ago, 7 minutes later, 18 hours after the original post[^] [v] #574,348
@previous (A)
that's the theory anyway. we'll see how it works out in counties with higher than average minimum wage. that pay rate won't do them any good if the jobs are gone. if it works and it alleviates poverty and gives people more opportunity, then bully. everyone should follow suit. unfortunately you can't make employers pay more for work than they feel it's worth, either the jobs will get automated or the businesses will vacate. we'll just have to see which way the wind blows.
that's the theory anyway. we'll see how it works out in counties with higher than average minimum wage. that pay rate won't do them any good if the jobs are gone. if it works and it alleviates poverty and gives people more opportunity, then bully. everyone should follow suit. unfortunately you can't make employers pay more for work than they feel it's worth, either the jobs will get automated or the businesses will vacate. we'll just have to see which way the wind blows.
Anonymous A (OP) replied with this 11 years ago, 23 minutes later, 19 hours after the original post[^] [v] #574,352
@previous (squeegee)
Low paid workers generally also miss out on paid vacations as well. 3 or 4 weeks mandatory paid annual leave + statutory holidays is not uncommon at all in the developed world. In the US that seems to be out of reach for minimum wage workers. It's the cotton picking mentality of employers, unfortunately.
Low paid workers generally also miss out on paid vacations as well. 3 or 4 weeks mandatory paid annual leave + statutory holidays is not uncommon at all in the developed world. In the US that seems to be out of reach for minimum wage workers. It's the cotton picking mentality of employers, unfortunately.
squeegee replied with this 11 years ago, 34 minutes later, 19 hours after the original post[^] [v] #574,353
@previous (A)
hmmm
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_statutory_minimum_employment_leave_by_country
USA
> The average number of paid vacation days offered by private employers is 10 days after 1 year of service, 14 days after 5 years, 17 days after 10 years, and 19 days after 20 years.
Russia and UK
> 28 days for everyone!
there's a bunch that get 25.
americans work on average about 1700 hours a year, and a lot of those countries listed work up to a couple of hundred hours less. makes sense since they are required to take so much time off.
i wonder if that's why the EU has a GDP of 14 trillion and a population total of 500 million and
the US has a 16 trillion dollar GDP and a population of 300 million despite having similar upward mobility in both our societies.
we earn more on average. i wonder if that's because we work more. probably. the rest of it is that companies flip the bill for all of it, more than likely.
hmmm
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_statutory_minimum_employment_leave_by_country
USA
> The average number of paid vacation days offered by private employers is 10 days after 1 year of service, 14 days after 5 years, 17 days after 10 years, and 19 days after 20 years.
Russia and UK
> 28 days for everyone!
there's a bunch that get 25.
americans work on average about 1700 hours a year, and a lot of those countries listed work up to a couple of hundred hours less. makes sense since they are required to take so much time off.
i wonder if that's why the EU has a GDP of 14 trillion and a population total of 500 million and
the US has a 16 trillion dollar GDP and a population of 300 million despite having similar upward mobility in both our societies.
we earn more on average. i wonder if that's because we work more. probably. the rest of it is that companies flip the bill for all of it, more than likely.
(Edited 31 seconds later.)
Anonymous A (OP) replied with this 11 years ago, 22 minutes later, 20 hours after the original post[^] [v] #574,354
@previous (squeegee)
Those years of service holidays are probably for workers requiring an apprenticeship before you reach your average wage, not minimum wage earners. If you're flipping burgers on minimum wage with 6 days off a year, then that's it.
Those years of service holidays are probably for workers requiring an apprenticeship before you reach your average wage, not minimum wage earners. If you're flipping burgers on minimum wage with 6 days off a year, then that's it.
squeegee replied with this 11 years ago, 21 minutes later, 20 hours after the original post[^] [v] #574,355
@previous (A)
in the US there are zero days of guaranteed paid time off. it's totally up to the company to decide to offer that as a perk or not. but no one is getting paid days off without working for them first. that's why it's broken up like that, if you've been in a job for a year on average you'll get 10 days off. but you're right, probably minimum wage workers don't get paid vacation. but there's also the issue of full-time/part-time and full time jobs in a lot of instances come with perks. but, usually part time jobs pay minimum wage and there's not even a guarantee of a set number of hours if you're part time. also full time jobs tend to not be minimum wage jobs either.
i can't see paying them more for their low-skilled work and paying them to work less as well. that just seems like a way to start making States in America start missing deadlines to make payments to the IMF and shit...
in the US there are zero days of guaranteed paid time off. it's totally up to the company to decide to offer that as a perk or not. but no one is getting paid days off without working for them first. that's why it's broken up like that, if you've been in a job for a year on average you'll get 10 days off. but you're right, probably minimum wage workers don't get paid vacation. but there's also the issue of full-time/part-time and full time jobs in a lot of instances come with perks. but, usually part time jobs pay minimum wage and there's not even a guarantee of a set number of hours if you're part time. also full time jobs tend to not be minimum wage jobs either.
i can't see paying them more for their low-skilled work and paying them to work less as well. that just seems like a way to start making States in America start missing deadlines to make payments to the IMF and shit...
squeegee double-posted this 11 years ago, 13 minutes later, 20 hours after the original post[^] [v] #574,357
the EU's GDP is 14 trillion and population is 500 million. that's 28k per person.
the US's GDP is 16 trillion and population is 300 million. that's 53k per person.
if the EU earned on average what americans earn the EU's GDP would be 26.5 trillion dollars. i don't know why the EU doesn't earn like the US these days, we've got the same technologies and even the same global manufacturing base and are as interconnected as we are. i can only think it's because the EU and the US do business very differently.
in fact germany is fixing to go dark i think. We deal with a couple of german manufacturers and in july they just leave. they're just gone. company is closed. for like the whole month all of germany just stops. it's like they think that the world stops for them. so we've always got to make preparations to deal with the damn germans all taking a month long vacation from the business world. but yeah, if we've got a problem and need them to resolve something, we're just shit out of luck. Hans is backpacking through argentina.
the US's GDP is 16 trillion and population is 300 million. that's 53k per person.
if the EU earned on average what americans earn the EU's GDP would be 26.5 trillion dollars. i don't know why the EU doesn't earn like the US these days, we've got the same technologies and even the same global manufacturing base and are as interconnected as we are. i can only think it's because the EU and the US do business very differently.
in fact germany is fixing to go dark i think. We deal with a couple of german manufacturers and in july they just leave. they're just gone. company is closed. for like the whole month all of germany just stops. it's like they think that the world stops for them. so we've always got to make preparations to deal with the damn germans all taking a month long vacation from the business world. but yeah, if we've got a problem and need them to resolve something, we're just shit out of luck. Hans is backpacking through argentina.
Anonymous A (OP) replied with this 11 years ago, 24 minutes later, 21 hours after the original post[^] [v] #574,359
@574,355 (squeegee)Yeah well, the rest of the world can do it for the poor and needy, and provide free health care as well.
Anonymous B replied with this 11 years ago, 6 minutes later, 21 hours after the original post[^] [v] #574,360
5. US citizens falsely believe that poor people are just lazy.
Anonymous Q joined in and replied with this 11 years ago, 2 hours later, 23 hours after the original post[^] [v] #574,366
squeegee replied with this 11 years ago, 3 hours later, 1 day after the original post[^] [v] #574,396
@574,359 (A)
well sure, but like i've pointed out, at a significant ding to gdp. basically the way the eu runs things costs them half the gdp they ought to have.
y'all earn significantly less than we do when there's no reason for it except "muh paid vaycay and muh free healthcare."
well sure, but like i've pointed out, at a significant ding to gdp. basically the way the eu runs things costs them half the gdp they ought to have.
y'all earn significantly less than we do when there's no reason for it except "muh paid vaycay and muh free healthcare."
squeegee double-posted this 11 years ago, 17 minutes later, 1 day after the original post[^] [v] #574,397
so like if the eu killed the stupid paid vacation bullshit then the added value from keeping workers working would add something like close to 1.5 trillion. like first year your gdp would go up almost 10%. not only that but since companies will have an extra months salary for every worker not being spent on them not working frees them up more money to build the business and add new hires and spur the economy even more.
getting rid of "paid vaycay for erryone" would increase your gdp by probably 3-5 trillion within the first couple of years.
19 trillion would be pretty nice, and much closer to what the eu should actually be earning.
probably ending the massive entitlements y'all got (and stopping the tax-rape) would make your economy even more agile and grow faster.
i mean y'all earn way less and countries over there can't even pay their debts! maybe stop sending everyone on vacation and pay your damn debts first.
the eu has real, major problems that are only getting worse. stop pointing to your handouts like they aren't strangling y'alls economic growth. but i guess someone more important than greece will have to go bankrupt before it becomes obvious.
getting rid of "paid vaycay for erryone" would increase your gdp by probably 3-5 trillion within the first couple of years.
19 trillion would be pretty nice, and much closer to what the eu should actually be earning.
probably ending the massive entitlements y'all got (and stopping the tax-rape) would make your economy even more agile and grow faster.
i mean y'all earn way less and countries over there can't even pay their debts! maybe stop sending everyone on vacation and pay your damn debts first.
the eu has real, major problems that are only getting worse. stop pointing to your handouts like they aren't strangling y'alls economic growth. but i guess someone more important than greece will have to go bankrupt before it becomes obvious.
(Edited 1 minute later.)
Anonymous A (OP) replied with this 11 years ago, 4 hours later, 1 day after the original post[^] [v] #574,422
@previous (squeegee)
You can't seriously be blaming the debt crisis in Greece on paid annual leave? You seem a lil bit jelly of it if anything. And grabbing GDP stats includes all of the top earners, completely missing the point of our minimum wage discussion
You can't seriously be blaming the debt crisis in Greece on paid annual leave? You seem a lil bit jelly of it if anything. And grabbing GDP stats includes all of the top earners, completely missing the point of our minimum wage discussion
squeegee replied with this 11 years ago, 11 minutes later, 1 day after the original post[^] [v] #574,427
@previous (A)
i'm blaming it on the bad business practices of the eurozone countries. yes.
between entitlements and taxes and restrictions (re: drag) on businesses the eu would have many more trillions in the hands of the people.
let businesses function rather than be taxed and hamstrung and the eu would pull in another 12 trillion a year in earnings within a decade. or just keep taxing and regulating vacation days and watch country after country battle austerity and fall out of the euro.
i'm blaming it on the bad business practices of the eurozone countries. yes.
between entitlements and taxes and restrictions (re: drag) on businesses the eu would have many more trillions in the hands of the people.
let businesses function rather than be taxed and hamstrung and the eu would pull in another 12 trillion a year in earnings within a decade. or just keep taxing and regulating vacation days and watch country after country battle austerity and fall out of the euro.
(Edited 6 minutes later.)
Broseph !!fxnDb+Ve4 replied with this 11 years ago, 4 minutes later, 1 day after the original post[^] [v] #574,429
squeegee replied with this 11 years ago, 5 minutes later, 1 day after the original post[^] [v] #574,430
@574,422 (A)
also i'm not jelly of paid leave. i get 2 weeks a year paid at least. not to mention paid sick leave and the ability to request additional time off. but i also work more than 1700 hours a year, too.
also i'm not jelly of paid leave. i get 2 weeks a year paid at least. not to mention paid sick leave and the ability to request additional time off. but i also work more than 1700 hours a year, too.
RWBY Rhubarb !!iNo3FkiZx replied with this 11 years ago, 4 minutes later, 1 day after the original post[^] [v] #574,431
@574,397 (squeegee)
@574,427 (squeegee)
I don't know much at all about economic stuff, so I'll just get my shit slapped if I try to dispute you on that. Nonetheless, I doubt it's quite as simple as "make this one simple change to rake in the trillions and save the EU". Also...
> or watch country after country battle austerity and fall out of the euro.
Seriously doubting this. From what I've heard, it's just Greece that's going down the toilet, right now. The other countries seem to be on the road to recovery.
@574,427 (squeegee)
I don't know much at all about economic stuff, so I'll just get my shit slapped if I try to dispute you on that. Nonetheless, I doubt it's quite as simple as "make this one simple change to rake in the trillions and save the EU". Also...
> or watch country after country battle austerity and fall out of the euro.
Seriously doubting this. From what I've heard, it's just Greece that's going down the toilet, right now. The other countries seem to be on the road to recovery.
squeegee replied with this 11 years ago, 32 minutes later, 1 day after the original post[^] [v] #574,440
@previous (RWBY Rhubarb !!iNo3FkiZx)
i doubt they'll let greece fall out, but if they do it could spell doom for the euro and the problem might snowball and take out others.
not sure anyone knows exactly what would happen, but everyone agrees it would be bad for the eu. i doubt it'll come to that.
probably europe will limp along and make enough changes to stablize all their members, but at the cost of a generally more depressed europe than there would be without all the strain on businesses and high taxes paying out entitlements.
but, as it stands europe is way, way off from what a first world collection of nations should be generating in revenue based on their population.
business not having to fork over abiut 1.5 trillion to pay for vacations would go a looooong way towards increasing economic growth.
that 1.5 trillion tied up in vacation entitlements could pay loooooots of workers who don't have jobs (becuase companies are spending on vacation that which could be used to hire new employees or expand their business.)
business could turn that 1.5 trillion in savings into many more trillions of economic growth. "but, muh vaycay."
i doubt they'll let greece fall out, but if they do it could spell doom for the euro and the problem might snowball and take out others.
not sure anyone knows exactly what would happen, but everyone agrees it would be bad for the eu. i doubt it'll come to that.
probably europe will limp along and make enough changes to stablize all their members, but at the cost of a generally more depressed europe than there would be without all the strain on businesses and high taxes paying out entitlements.
but, as it stands europe is way, way off from what a first world collection of nations should be generating in revenue based on their population.
business not having to fork over abiut 1.5 trillion to pay for vacations would go a looooong way towards increasing economic growth.
that 1.5 trillion tied up in vacation entitlements could pay loooooots of workers who don't have jobs (becuase companies are spending on vacation that which could be used to hire new employees or expand their business.)
business could turn that 1.5 trillion in savings into many more trillions of economic growth. "but, muh vaycay."
RWBY Rhubarb !!iNo3FkiZx replied with this 11 years ago, 13 minutes later, 1 day after the original post[^] [v] #574,444
@previous (squeegee)
Listen, as I said, I have no idea about the economy. I want to defend my continent's honour against your vicious American criticisms, but this ain't my bag.
Can we settle this over a game of Halo instead?
Listen, as I said, I have no idea about the economy. I want to defend my continent's honour against your vicious American criticisms, but this ain't my bag.
Can we settle this over a game of Halo instead?
squeegee replied with this 11 years ago, 5 minutes later, 1 day after the original post[^] [v] #574,446
RWBY Rhubarb !!iNo3FkiZx replied with this 11 years ago, 14 minutes later, 1 day after the original post[^] [v] #574,452
@previous (squeegee)
Of course not! He beat the flood, and by golly he can figure out this economic stuff!
Of course not! He beat the flood, and by golly he can figure out this economic stuff!
squeegee replied with this 11 years ago, 3 hours later, 1 day after the original post[^] [v] #574,562
http://www.washingtonpost.com/blogs/wonkblog/wp/2012/10/12/imf-austerity-is-much-worse-for-the-economy-than-we-thought/this is kind of interesting, because basically it's saying austerity is bad during a downturn. 2 years later and greece is worse off than it was before.
so if you can't control debt by raising taxes and cutting spending when there is also high unemployment then how do you pay down on debt? how do you encourage growth?
1. let business keep more of their money
2. encourage workers to work more and not less
with more money business can expand and with more hours a year spent working more can be accomplished in the same amount of time. That and partnered countries should inject wealth into the community by funding large infrastructure improvements and social service programs. or something.
it's pretty difficult to tighten your belt and pull yourself up with your own boot straps when someone saddles you with a 100lb ruck-sack.
oh yeah, the eu just needs to be like states are over here in america. really the european problem won't go away until there are fewer countries. actually that kinda goes for, like, the whole world, but i digress. i think it'll happen here before too long and the impetus for it will likely be all the economic troubles. y'all just need to give it up and come on over to federalism.
the idea that the national government and the state government are equal is pretty good stuff. i mean you already have the unified currency. go ahead and write up the new constitution. and what would be awesome, really and truly, would be the eventual union between the United States of America and the United States of Western Europe.
edit: you'll gain the right to bear arms and a bunch of other cool shit too. so think about it.
(Edited 4 minutes later.)
Anonymous A (OP) replied with this 11 years ago, 1 hour later, 1 day after the original post[^] [v] #574,572
@previous (squeegee)
The Greeks have been mismanaging their spending for years, and have spent much more than they earned in taxes. They started running into trouble in like 2007 or something. The Greeks themselves run on a black economy to some degree, to avoid paying taxes, so they are working more than government figures show.
They should have never been allowed into the EU because of the high value of the Euro hurts their economy compared to the Drachma, and because they haven't been playing by the rules and misreporting and hiding their deficit for so long.
The Greeks have been mismanaging their spending for years, and have spent much more than they earned in taxes. They started running into trouble in like 2007 or something. The Greeks themselves run on a black economy to some degree, to avoid paying taxes, so they are working more than government figures show.
They should have never been allowed into the EU because of the high value of the Euro hurts their economy compared to the Drachma, and because they haven't been playing by the rules and misreporting and hiding their deficit for so long.