Topic: Are the 2010s going to be remembered as the trans-decade?
Catherine !TGirlYJKXM started this discussion 11 years ago #41,491
Seems like a lot of trans-related events transpired these past few years.
vocalon !74TdoRkjCc joined in and replied with this 11 years ago, 3 minutes later[^] [v] #551,404
great clickbait mate
and probably not. best case scenario it'll be another milestone in the never-ending USAmerican civil rights movement
and probably not. best case scenario it'll be another milestone in the never-ending USAmerican civil rights movement
Catherine !TGirlYJKXM (OP) replied with this 11 years ago, 4 minutes later, 7 minutes after the original post[^] [v] #551,406
@previous (vocalon !74TdoRkjCc)
The transgender community is probably the last great civil rights movement we're seen in sometime.
The transgender community is probably the last great civil rights movement we're seen in sometime.
vocalon !74TdoRkjCc replied with this 11 years ago, 2 minutes later, 9 minutes after the original post[^] [v] #551,407
Broseph !!fxnDb+Ve4 joined in and replied with this 11 years ago, 46 minutes later, 56 minutes after the original post[^] [v] #551,412
It's been a pretty gay millennium so far.
squeegee joined in and replied with this 11 years ago, 2 minutes later, 58 minutes after the original post[^] [v] #551,413
@previous (Broseph !!fxnDb+Ve4)
it really has, lol
i can't wait to read about this time period in like 40 years
it really has, lol
i can't wait to read about this time period in like 40 years
(Edited 27 seconds later.)
Catherine !TGirlYJKXM (OP) replied with this 11 years ago, 4 minutes later, 1 hour after the original post[^] [v] #551,414
Anonymous E joined in and replied with this 11 years ago, 27 minutes later, 1 hour after the original post[^] [v] #551,427
@551,406 (Catherine !TGirlYJKXM)
> The transgender community is probably the last great civil rights movement we're seen in sometime.
no it isnt, 70% of people who identify as "transgendered/genderfluid/etc" have mental problems, they want to be unique so they try to drastically alter their appearance in order to have something to talk about
@previous (Catherine !TGirlYJKXM)
> That's an ongoing civil rights movement.
> The transgender community is probably the last great civil rights movement we're seen in sometime.
no it isnt, 70% of people who identify as "transgendered/genderfluid/etc" have mental problems, they want to be unique so they try to drastically alter their appearance in order to have something to talk about
@previous (Catherine !TGirlYJKXM)
> That's an ongoing civil rights movement.
WSD !dBGi/iH4eY joined in and replied with this 11 years ago, 4 minutes later, 1 hour after the original post[^] [v] #551,428
Anonymous E replied with this 11 years ago, 23 minutes later, 1 hour after the original post[^] [v] #551,430
vocalon !74TdoRkjCc replied with this 11 years ago, 32 minutes later, 2 hours after the original post[^] [v] #551,435
Anonymous G joined in and replied with this 11 years ago, 51 minutes later, 3 hours after the original post[^] [v] #551,440
By definition transgenderism is a mental health problem. The symptoms are solved with a scalpel though.
Broseph !!fxnDb+Ve4 replied with this 11 years ago, 7 minutes later, 3 hours after the original post[^] [v] #551,443
Broseph !!fxnDb+Ve4 double-posted this 11 years ago, 1 minute later, 3 hours after the original post[^] [v] #551,444
@551,440 (G)
They could probably treat the brain instead of the body, but even research on how to do so would be considered "transphobic."
They could probably treat the brain instead of the body, but even research on how to do so would be considered "transphobic."
Anonymous H joined in and replied with this 11 years ago, 23 seconds later, 3 hours after the original post[^] [v] #551,445
Broseph !!fxnDb+Ve4 replied with this 11 years ago, 18 minutes later, 3 hours after the original post[^] [v] #551,448
Green joined in and replied with this 11 years ago, 2 hours later, 5 hours after the original post[^] [v] #551,453
Bella died.
Catherine !TGirlYJKXM (OP) replied with this 11 years ago, 39 minutes later, 6 hours after the original post[^] [v] #551,457
@551,444 (Broseph !!fxnDb+Ve4)
Solving the problem by changing the brain to male for MTFs or female?
Stupid question on my part though.
Solving the problem by changing the brain to male for MTFs or female?
Stupid question on my part though.
Meowth joined in and replied with this 11 years ago, 14 hours later, 21 hours after the original post[^] [v] #551,659
Anonymous K joined in and replied with this 11 years ago, 2 hours later, 23 hours after the original post[^] [v] #551,717
vocalon !74TdoRkjCc replied with this 11 years ago, 1 hour later, 1 day after the original post[^] [v] #551,770
Killer Lettuce !!iNo3FkiZx joined in and replied with this 11 years ago, 6 minutes later, 1 day after the original post[^] [v] #551,774
@551,444 (Broseph !!fxnDb+Ve4)
> Tumblr boogeyman
@551,717 (K)
I do.
Well, I'm loosely following events, anyway.
> Tumblr boogeyman
@551,717 (K)
I do.
Well, I'm loosely following events, anyway.
Broseph !!fxnDb+Ve4 replied with this 11 years ago, 3 hours later, 1 day after the original post[^] [v] #551,825
@551,457 (Catherine !TGirlYJKXM)I look it at like this. If you actually believe in the soul or God, a transgender person believes that they have a female soul in a male body or a male soul in a female body and that God made a mistake. This doesn't make much sense and it doesn't make much sense to drastically modify your body for spiritual reasons. If you don't believe in souls or God and you want to look at gender dysmorphia from a scientific perspective then it makes even less sense. There is no scientific evidence that nature made a mistake, or rather, there's no scientific evidence that your brain is the part that is correct and your body is the part that is wrong. If you have a Y chromosome, and you have male hormones and develop as a normal male physically, then it is rational to assume that the problem is in your head. Gender dysmorphia is a mental disorder, so why not try to treat it like any other mental disorder instead of drastically changing your body to appease your brain?
Now if they put a lot of effort into trying to fix the problem in the brain and found nothing, and the only way for people with gender dysmorphia to lead happy, normal lives is to modify their bodies, fine. If they find a way to treat the mental disorder, and you still want to go through with a transition, that's your choice and that's fine too. I've got no problem referring to people as the gender and pronoun they prefer and respecting their choices. The problem is, like I said, any research into this is viewed as transphobic or homophobic, as if scientific research into how to treat gender dysmorphia is the equivalent of trying to find a drug that would turn gay people straight.
So, a question. If they found a way to make you feel like a male inside a male body, why not try that treatment? Are you open to the idea that the problem is in your head and that your body is fine the way it is, or is the idea of being female so ingrained into your identity that your fear such change? Pic somewhat related.
Green replied with this 11 years ago, 2 hours later, 1 day after the original post[^] [v] #551,854
@previous (Broseph !!fxnDb+Ve4)
Gender is a social construct. Only humans do it, you don't see a cross-dressing cow.
Gender is a social construct. Only humans do it, you don't see a cross-dressing cow.
Killer Lettuce !!iNo3FkiZx replied with this 11 years ago, 2 hours later, 1 day after the original post[^] [v] #551,867
@551,825 (Broseph !!fxnDb+Ve4)
> The problem is, like I said, any research into this is viewed as transphobic
I'm curious, do you have cases of evidence of this happening? Research into it being decried as transphobic? Ideally, I'd like to see this coming from scientists or a professional news outlet rather than a Tumblr SJW having a meltdown over it.
Personally, my view is that it'd be great if neurology were able to advance to the point where the abnormality in the brain that causes gender dysphoria could be fixed. That way, it gives those with the condition a very open set of options on how they want to approach their condition. Though I would only hope that people in general wouldn't start pushing for the brain surgery to be the "correct" option. It should be a free choice.
> The problem is, like I said, any research into this is viewed as transphobic
I'm curious, do you have cases of evidence of this happening? Research into it being decried as transphobic? Ideally, I'd like to see this coming from scientists or a professional news outlet rather than a Tumblr SJW having a meltdown over it.
Personally, my view is that it'd be great if neurology were able to advance to the point where the abnormality in the brain that causes gender dysphoria could be fixed. That way, it gives those with the condition a very open set of options on how they want to approach their condition. Though I would only hope that people in general wouldn't start pushing for the brain surgery to be the "correct" option. It should be a free choice.
Broseph !!fxnDb+Ve4 replied with this 11 years ago, 19 hours later, 2 days after the original post[^] [v] #552,021
@previous (Killer Lettuce !!iNo3FkiZx)
That's not a fair standard. Can you find scientific research that says scientific research into reversing homosexuality is homophobic? The lack of studies and political and social knowledge of why there are a lack of studies is enough. Like or not, those crazy SJWs do have an influence on our culture and politics. The closest I can find is this statement from WebMD: "The goal is not to change how the person feels about his or her gender. Instead, the goal is to deal with the distress that may come with those feelings." The fact that I can't find any evidence of them trying to treat the mental condition shows this to be true. I'd gladly stand corrected if you find evidence to the contrary.
Also, I'm waiting for Catherine to answer my question.
That's not a fair standard. Can you find scientific research that says scientific research into reversing homosexuality is homophobic? The lack of studies and political and social knowledge of why there are a lack of studies is enough. Like or not, those crazy SJWs do have an influence on our culture and politics. The closest I can find is this statement from WebMD: "The goal is not to change how the person feels about his or her gender. Instead, the goal is to deal with the distress that may come with those feelings." The fact that I can't find any evidence of them trying to treat the mental condition shows this to be true. I'd gladly stand corrected if you find evidence to the contrary.
Also, I'm waiting for Catherine to answer my question.
(Edited 33 seconds later.)
Catherine !TGirlYJKXM (OP) replied with this 11 years ago, 3 minutes later, 2 days after the original post[^] [v] #552,022
@previous (Broseph !!fxnDb+Ve4)
Which question was that? Is it the male treatment one?
I'd rather have a pill that magically transfers me into a cis-female than a cis-male or can transplant my brain into a freshly created female body while saving my male body on ice.
Which question was that? Is it the male treatment one?
I'd rather have a pill that magically transfers me into a cis-female than a cis-male or can transplant my brain into a freshly created female body while saving my male body on ice.
kook !!mCVqftDha joined in and replied with this 11 years ago, 15 minutes later, 2 days after the original post[^] [v] #552,024
@previous (Catherine !TGirlYJKXM)
He's asking if you would accept treatment that would cure your dysphoria.
He's asking if you would accept treatment that would cure your dysphoria.
(Edited 19 seconds later.)
Catherine !TGirlYJKXM (OP) replied with this 11 years ago, 9 minutes later, 2 days after the original post[^] [v] #552,025
@previous (kook !!mCVqftDha)
Only if the treatment can go both ways, but I wouldn't pick the male treatment.
Only if the treatment can go both ways, but I wouldn't pick the male treatment.
(Edited 24 seconds later.)
Broseph !!fxnDb+Ve4 replied with this 11 years ago, 1 hour later, 2 days after the original post[^] [v] #552,047
@previous (Catherine !TGirlYJKXM)
That's not what I meant. I meant treat as in fix the problem in your problem that makes you feel female.
The question is essentially "If you could cure it by changing your brain rather than changing your body, would you? Why or why not?"
That's not what I meant. I meant treat as in fix the problem in your problem that makes you feel female.
The question is essentially "If you could cure it by changing your brain rather than changing your body, would you? Why or why not?"
(Edited 1 minute later.)
Broseph !!fxnDb+Ve4 double-posted this 11 years ago, 12 minutes later, 2 days after the original post[^] [v] #552,050
@551,867 (Killer Lettuce !!iNo3FkiZx)
Continuing to research the issue, I may stand corrected. After some digging I did find some papers talking about trying to use psychotherapy to fix the gender issues in the brain back in the 60s and 70s. They were so unsuccessful that they basically gave up and now we have the cures we have today. So, it may be more scientific than social. I still think they should continue their research and see if there are any psychiatric drugs that could help treat the condition.
Continuing to research the issue, I may stand corrected. After some digging I did find some papers talking about trying to use psychotherapy to fix the gender issues in the brain back in the 60s and 70s. They were so unsuccessful that they basically gave up and now we have the cures we have today. So, it may be more scientific than social. I still think they should continue their research and see if there are any psychiatric drugs that could help treat the condition.
Catherine !TGirlYJKXM (OP) replied with this 11 years ago, 44 minutes later, 2 days after the original post[^] [v] #552,051
@552,047 (Broseph !!fxnDb+Ve4)
For something such as gender identity, no, that sounds silly. Either way it involves transitioning. If it was to prevent schizophrenia instead of gender dysphoria then absolutely.
@previous (Broseph !!fxnDb+Ve4)
Forcing people to live to a status quo changing who they are does not sound like a good idea. The way you're currently describing it sounds a little fascist to be honest.
For something such as gender identity, no, that sounds silly. Either way it involves transitioning. If it was to prevent schizophrenia instead of gender dysphoria then absolutely.
@previous (Broseph !!fxnDb+Ve4)
Forcing people to live to a status quo changing who they are does not sound like a good idea. The way you're currently describing it sounds a little fascist to be honest.
Killer Lettuce !!iNo3FkiZx replied with this 11 years ago, 5 minutes later, 2 days after the original post[^] [v] #552,054
@552,050 (Broseph !!fxnDb+Ve4)
I'm not sure that drugs would cut it. See, the cause the the condition is a difference in the very structure of the brain. So I'm unsure that drugs could any more help this than change a person's sexuality, or give a psychopath empathy. Maybe one day there'll be some technique for it, but I just can't see it myself, right now.
@552,021 (Broseph !!fxnDb+Ve4)
> Like or not, those crazy SJWs do have an influence on our culture and politics.
So do crazy right-wingers. And moderates. And it's not like science hasn't been able to ignore pressure groups before and bist get on with its work.
But anyway, my point was to ask you if there was some professional body or individual that'd spoken out about it, since their opinion would hold more weight than a random teenager with a blog. But your subsequent post was just as good.
I'm not sure that drugs would cut it. See, the cause the the condition is a difference in the very structure of the brain. So I'm unsure that drugs could any more help this than change a person's sexuality, or give a psychopath empathy. Maybe one day there'll be some technique for it, but I just can't see it myself, right now.
@552,021 (Broseph !!fxnDb+Ve4)
> Like or not, those crazy SJWs do have an influence on our culture and politics.
So do crazy right-wingers. And moderates. And it's not like science hasn't been able to ignore pressure groups before and bist get on with its work.
But anyway, my point was to ask you if there was some professional body or individual that'd spoken out about it, since their opinion would hold more weight than a random teenager with a blog. But your subsequent post was just as good.
Catherine !TGirlYJKXM (OP) replied with this 11 years ago, 13 minutes later, 2 days after the original post[^] [v] #552,058
@previous (Killer Lettuce !!iNo3FkiZx)
If we're able to change a person's gender identity would this mean we'd be able to cure autism too?
If we're able to change a person's gender identity would this mean we'd be able to cure autism too?
Killer Lettuce !!iNo3FkiZx replied with this 11 years ago, 2 minutes later, 2 days after the original post[^] [v] #552,059
vocalon !74TdoRkjCc replied with this 11 years ago, 2 minutes later, 2 days after the original post[^] [v] #552,060
@552,058 (Catherine !TGirlYJKXM)
why would you even want to do that though
like, what do people gain from it other than the fact that autism speaks wont be around to empty ignorant peoples wallets anymore
why would you even want to do that though
like, what do people gain from it other than the fact that autism speaks wont be around to empty ignorant peoples wallets anymore
Killer Lettuce !!iNo3FkiZx replied with this 11 years ago, 7 minutes later, 2 days after the original post[^] [v] #552,061
@previous (vocalon !74TdoRkjCc)
Some forms of autism can be pretty bad, and would IMO be better off cured. Like, I watched a documentary in university where there were some kids who could barely talk or function, and had daily meltdowns. The parents who had to look after them were also pretty stressed out.
Some forms of autism can be pretty bad, and would IMO be better off cured. Like, I watched a documentary in university where there were some kids who could barely talk or function, and had daily meltdowns. The parents who had to look after them were also pretty stressed out.
Broseph !!fxnDb+Ve4 replied with this 11 years ago, 5 hours later, 2 days after the original post[^] [v] #552,100
@552,051 (Catherine !TGirlYJKXM)
Why does it sound silly? Your gender identity is what is wrong, not your body. Why do you assume that your brain is infallible and can't be changed? It's a transition either way. Why is it fascist to try to cure the mental disorder instead of appease it?
Why does it sound silly? Your gender identity is what is wrong, not your body. Why do you assume that your brain is infallible and can't be changed? It's a transition either way. Why is it fascist to try to cure the mental disorder instead of appease it?
(Edited 25 seconds later.)
Broseph !!fxnDb+Ve4 double-posted this 11 years ago, 11 minutes later, 2 days after the original post[^] [v] #552,104
@552,054 (Killer Lettuce !!iNo3FkiZx)
I could not find evidence that the problem is in the very structure of the brain. In fact, I found the opposite. Studies to try to find post-mortem differences in brain structure have been inconclusive. Even so, prolonged drug use can change brain structure.
I could not find evidence that the problem is in the very structure of the brain. In fact, I found the opposite. Studies to try to find post-mortem differences in brain structure have been inconclusive. Even so, prolonged drug use can change brain structure.
Broseph !!fxnDb+Ve4 triple-posted this 11 years ago, 3 minutes later, 2 days after the original post[^] [v] #552,105
@552,060 (vocalon !74TdoRkjCc)
Because it's a detrimental condition. Everyone's quality of life would be improved if it could be cured.
I just don't understand this reverence for mental conditions being part of one's identity. Hence the werewolf comic I posted. People need to learn to accept that you can't better yourself without changing yourself.
Because it's a detrimental condition. Everyone's quality of life would be improved if it could be cured.
I just don't understand this reverence for mental conditions being part of one's identity. Hence the werewolf comic I posted. People need to learn to accept that you can't better yourself without changing yourself.
Killer Lettuce !!iNo3FkiZx replied with this 11 years ago, 1 hour later, 2 days after the original post[^] [v] #552,112
@552,104 (Broseph !!fxnDb+Ve4)
I'm not sure what research you looked at but it's a very well-documented fact in Psychology that transexualism has a strong basis in brain structure. As laid out by this Wikipedia article, many studies have found brain differences in transsexuals compared to other members of their biological sex.
...Though, just under that section, it also discusses brain plasticity, which is the when the brain changes itself in response to certain conditions. It doesn't seem like they have anything in regards to transsexualism specifically, though. But it did show me that things might be more malleable than I'd thought.
@552,100 (Broseph !!fxnDb+Ve4)
> Your gender identity is what is wrong, not your body.
This provokes an interesting philosophical issue. Who's to say that the gender identity is wholly "wrong"? Our mind, which encompasses human personality, thought and self-awareness, all exist in the brain. That's why many transexuals think of themselves as memebers of one gender trapped in the body of another, because that's literally their identity. And they'd no more want to change that than a gay man would want to become straight. So, from their point of view, it's their body that's out of sync, not their mind.
That's not to say that they shouldn't have access to the option to alter their mind instead, however. It'd be great if they had more options in how to approach the condition. But we should have some empathy for them too. They should be free to make either choice, and not have either one criticised as "wrong".
I'm not sure what research you looked at but it's a very well-documented fact in Psychology that transexualism has a strong basis in brain structure. As laid out by this Wikipedia article, many studies have found brain differences in transsexuals compared to other members of their biological sex.
...Though, just under that section, it also discusses brain plasticity, which is the when the brain changes itself in response to certain conditions. It doesn't seem like they have anything in regards to transsexualism specifically, though. But it did show me that things might be more malleable than I'd thought.
@552,100 (Broseph !!fxnDb+Ve4)
> Your gender identity is what is wrong, not your body.
This provokes an interesting philosophical issue. Who's to say that the gender identity is wholly "wrong"? Our mind, which encompasses human personality, thought and self-awareness, all exist in the brain. That's why many transexuals think of themselves as memebers of one gender trapped in the body of another, because that's literally their identity. And they'd no more want to change that than a gay man would want to become straight. So, from their point of view, it's their body that's out of sync, not their mind.
That's not to say that they shouldn't have access to the option to alter their mind instead, however. It'd be great if they had more options in how to approach the condition. But we should have some empathy for them too. They should be free to make either choice, and not have either one criticised as "wrong".
(Edited 1 minute later.)
kook !!mCVqftDha replied with this 11 years ago, 20 minutes later, 2 days after the original post[^] [v] #552,117
kook !!mCVqftDha double-posted this 11 years ago, 47 seconds later, 2 days after the original post[^] [v] #552,118
Broseph !!fxnDb+Ve4 replied with this 11 years ago, 1 hour later, 2 days after the original post[^] [v] #552,135
@552,112 (Killer Lettuce !!iNo3FkiZx)
Of course from their point of view their brain is right and the body is is wrong. Because the problem is in the brain, there's no way for them to feel otherwise. If there was a way to treat the brain and make them feel like the correct gender, then they would probably be just as hesitant to switch back again and would wonder why they were so hesitant to accept treatment in the first place. This is true of many psychological disorders where the person has an irrational attachment to the disorder as being part of their identity. I have friends who have ADHD or are bipolar and were reluctant to take drugs because of how they make them feel like a different person, but once they get over that hump they realize that the new identity is better and they get used to it.
There's no rational way to say that the brain is right and the body is wrong. Science tells us it is a mental disorder. The only reason we have all the transitional treatments, from what I can tell in the scientific literature, is because in the 60s and 70s therapists couldn't figure out a way to change the brain, so they resolved to treat their patients by changing the body. I don't disagree with their logic. I believe this is a noble cause. But we should not lose sight of the fact that this is merely appeasing the underlying condition, not solving the real problem. There could still be other treatments out there.
I don't think it's fair to compare it to homosexuality, because without the bigotry factor, homosexuals don't suffer from servere anxiety, depression, suicide, or try to radically alter their bodies. Even if homosexuality were a mental disorder, it's one where the only consequence is that you seek out others with the condition and are less inclined to reproduce. Hardly detrimental enough to warrant treatment, though I suppose if treatment existed there may be some homosexuals willing to try switching sides to see how it would feel to have a regular sexual identity and if they could adjust. It seems easier to simply accept their lifestyles.
People with gender dismorphia are a little different, because even if society accepts their differences completely, they still suffer from anxiety, depression, and suicide if they don't find a way to resolve their gender issues. The only question is, what's the most rational treatment.
Of course from their point of view their brain is right and the body is is wrong. Because the problem is in the brain, there's no way for them to feel otherwise. If there was a way to treat the brain and make them feel like the correct gender, then they would probably be just as hesitant to switch back again and would wonder why they were so hesitant to accept treatment in the first place. This is true of many psychological disorders where the person has an irrational attachment to the disorder as being part of their identity. I have friends who have ADHD or are bipolar and were reluctant to take drugs because of how they make them feel like a different person, but once they get over that hump they realize that the new identity is better and they get used to it.
There's no rational way to say that the brain is right and the body is wrong. Science tells us it is a mental disorder. The only reason we have all the transitional treatments, from what I can tell in the scientific literature, is because in the 60s and 70s therapists couldn't figure out a way to change the brain, so they resolved to treat their patients by changing the body. I don't disagree with their logic. I believe this is a noble cause. But we should not lose sight of the fact that this is merely appeasing the underlying condition, not solving the real problem. There could still be other treatments out there.
I don't think it's fair to compare it to homosexuality, because without the bigotry factor, homosexuals don't suffer from servere anxiety, depression, suicide, or try to radically alter their bodies. Even if homosexuality were a mental disorder, it's one where the only consequence is that you seek out others with the condition and are less inclined to reproduce. Hardly detrimental enough to warrant treatment, though I suppose if treatment existed there may be some homosexuals willing to try switching sides to see how it would feel to have a regular sexual identity and if they could adjust. It seems easier to simply accept their lifestyles.
People with gender dismorphia are a little different, because even if society accepts their differences completely, they still suffer from anxiety, depression, and suicide if they don't find a way to resolve their gender issues. The only question is, what's the most rational treatment.
(Edited 1 minute later.)
Anonymous H replied with this 11 years ago, 16 minutes later, 2 days after the original post[^] [v] #552,136
Simple solution to all of this fallderall.Brain transplants/Brain Exchange. Swap brains so Male who wants to be female gets the gender correct body.
kook !!mCVqftDha replied with this 11 years ago, 17 minutes later, 2 days after the original post[^] [v] #552,147
Killer Lettuce !!iNo3FkiZx replied with this 11 years ago, 1 hour later, 2 days after the original post[^] [v] #552,176
@552,135 (Broseph !!fxnDb+Ve4)
> that feel when you write out a long reply and accidentally close the tab
Though I actually like the second draft better, so it's all good. Anyway:
The comparison of gender dysphoria to ADHD and bipolar disorder isn't exactly a perfect one. With the latter two, are slightly "more fundamental" problems. With ADHD, you've got increases to stress and an inability to focus. With bipolar disorder, you get mood-swings and depressive episodes. So the only way to treat those is to alter the mind. However, with gender dysphoria, the issue is that the gender identity doesn't match the body's sex. So we have an alternate solution: modify the body.
Sex-reassignment surgery has, in general, seen some success in treating gender dysphoria and increasing psychlogical well-being. This Wikipedia section covers the studies dealing with the treatment's effectiveness. To give you a short summary of it, while the evidence is considered to be of low-quality, it has generally indicated that sex-reassignemnt improved well-being, and professional bodies such as the American Psychiatric Association deemed it good enough to recognise the treatment as effective. I also did some Googling, and found some modern studies wherein transexual participants largely experienced an improvement in psychological health thanks to some from of sex-reassignment.
Now, your proposed treatment, altering the brain, relies on the advancement of cognitive science, right? So why couldn't the same be applied to sex-reassignment surgery? Even with today's methods, it appears that many transexuals are happier because of the treatment. And with the advance of medical science (they can now grow organs), these treatments could get better still, which would presumably result in greater satisfaction as the person's body comes to more closely align with their own gender identity.
Again, I'm not saying that your proposed method of altering the brain is wrong or irrational, far from it. But neither is altering the body an ivalid or ineffective treatment.
> that feel when you write out a long reply and accidentally close the tab
Though I actually like the second draft better, so it's all good. Anyway:
The comparison of gender dysphoria to ADHD and bipolar disorder isn't exactly a perfect one. With the latter two, are slightly "more fundamental" problems. With ADHD, you've got increases to stress and an inability to focus. With bipolar disorder, you get mood-swings and depressive episodes. So the only way to treat those is to alter the mind. However, with gender dysphoria, the issue is that the gender identity doesn't match the body's sex. So we have an alternate solution: modify the body.
Sex-reassignment surgery has, in general, seen some success in treating gender dysphoria and increasing psychlogical well-being. This Wikipedia section covers the studies dealing with the treatment's effectiveness. To give you a short summary of it, while the evidence is considered to be of low-quality, it has generally indicated that sex-reassignemnt improved well-being, and professional bodies such as the American Psychiatric Association deemed it good enough to recognise the treatment as effective. I also did some Googling, and found some modern studies wherein transexual participants largely experienced an improvement in psychological health thanks to some from of sex-reassignment.
Now, your proposed treatment, altering the brain, relies on the advancement of cognitive science, right? So why couldn't the same be applied to sex-reassignment surgery? Even with today's methods, it appears that many transexuals are happier because of the treatment. And with the advance of medical science (they can now grow organs), these treatments could get better still, which would presumably result in greater satisfaction as the person's body comes to more closely align with their own gender identity.
Again, I'm not saying that your proposed method of altering the brain is wrong or irrational, far from it. But neither is altering the body an ivalid or ineffective treatment.
(Edited 1 minute later.)
kook !!mCVqftDha replied with this 11 years ago, 1 minute later, 2 days after the original post[^] [v] #552,177
@previous (Killer Lettuce !!iNo3FkiZx)
didnt gender surgery fail to curb suicide among trans people?
didnt gender surgery fail to curb suicide among trans people?
Killer Lettuce !!iNo3FkiZx replied with this 11 years ago, 15 minutes later, 2 days after the original post[^] [v] #552,180
@previous (kook !!mCVqftDha)
I'm not seeing that here, but I do recall you linking me to that website that cited a study about that. However, I should point out that the studies I linked to examined satisfaction specifically in regards to the treatments. The participants felt positively about the treatments as well as experiencing generally improved psychological well-being.
Meanwhile, it should be noted that transexuals seem to suffer from more abuse and emotional distress than non-transexuals (found two studies demonstrating this). So I'm theorising that it's possible that transexuals could experience ongoing emotional abuse even after transitioning, which would in turn maintain existing psychological problems for them. Basically, it may've been stress from bigotry that drove them to sucide rather than the treatment itself.
Not that I'm trying to claim that sex-reassignment would be perfect for everybody with gender dysphoria, of course. But, as the current body of evidence seems to suggest, it's a good treatment for many with the condition.
I'm not seeing that here, but I do recall you linking me to that website that cited a study about that. However, I should point out that the studies I linked to examined satisfaction specifically in regards to the treatments. The participants felt positively about the treatments as well as experiencing generally improved psychological well-being.
Meanwhile, it should be noted that transexuals seem to suffer from more abuse and emotional distress than non-transexuals (found two studies demonstrating this). So I'm theorising that it's possible that transexuals could experience ongoing emotional abuse even after transitioning, which would in turn maintain existing psychological problems for them. Basically, it may've been stress from bigotry that drove them to sucide rather than the treatment itself.
Not that I'm trying to claim that sex-reassignment would be perfect for everybody with gender dysphoria, of course. But, as the current body of evidence seems to suggest, it's a good treatment for many with the condition.
vocalon !74TdoRkjCc replied with this 11 years ago, 4 minutes later, 2 days after the original post[^] [v] #552,187
@552,061 (Killer Lettuce !!iNo3FkiZx)
thats an issue with the scenario they're in then? most autistic people prosper when they're in a situation which allows for them to avoid their stimulation triggers, like crowded classrooms.
also
> autism moms
lol
thats an issue with the scenario they're in then? most autistic people prosper when they're in a situation which allows for them to avoid their stimulation triggers, like crowded classrooms.
also
> autism moms
lol
Killer Lettuce !!iNo3FkiZx replied with this 11 years ago, 3 minutes later, 2 days after the original post[^] [v] #552,190
@previous (vocalon !74TdoRkjCc)
No, it wasn't just the situation. These kids were with highly supportive parents, and often spent time at home and away from crowds and such. However their speech abilities were severely impaired, and they often had violent or highly distressed meltdowns.
idk. I just think that in extreme cases like that, some sort of hypothetical "cure" would be justified, if such a thing were ever possible.
No, it wasn't just the situation. These kids were with highly supportive parents, and often spent time at home and away from crowds and such. However their speech abilities were severely impaired, and they often had violent or highly distressed meltdowns.
idk. I just think that in extreme cases like that, some sort of hypothetical "cure" would be justified, if such a thing were ever possible.
kook !!mCVqftDha replied with this 11 years ago, 6 minutes later, 2 days after the original post[^] [v] #552,193
vocalon !74TdoRkjCc replied with this 11 years ago, 6 minutes later, 2 days after the original post[^] [v] #552,200
@previous (kook !!mCVqftDha)
Autistic people are REALLY good at learning things. Look at every autistic kid who plays Minecraft. They could ramble for ages about it with no sources other than their own knowledge on the subject.
But the way the school system is set up hinders autistic people's natural prowess.
Autistic people are REALLY good at learning things. Look at every autistic kid who plays Minecraft. They could ramble for ages about it with no sources other than their own knowledge on the subject.
But the way the school system is set up hinders autistic people's natural prowess.
Green !BEERiVqJJw replied with this 11 years ago, 1 minute later, 2 days after the original post[^] [v] #552,204
kook !!mCVqftDha replied with this 11 years ago, 3 minutes later, 2 days after the original post[^] [v] #552,208
Catherine !TGirlYJKXM (OP) replied with this 11 years ago, 24 minutes later, 2 days after the original post[^] [v] #552,217
@552,136 (H)
This is great, but where do you find the bodies? We're unable to play god yet and just make a new one so we'd have to take volunteers.
And this could also lead to a new psychological phenomenon where the person in the new body often wishes their original body were female and doesn't feel quite at home in another person's body.
It might benefit everyone if the research went toward trying to make the person's original body female. Hormones more or less does a good job of that, but we're far far away from ever making someone 100% female.
Basically we should find a way to change chromosomes (though this might be pointless) and a way to craft a female reproduction system (which would more or less fit with the widely accepted definition of a female).
This is great, but where do you find the bodies? We're unable to play god yet and just make a new one so we'd have to take volunteers.
And this could also lead to a new psychological phenomenon where the person in the new body often wishes their original body were female and doesn't feel quite at home in another person's body.
It might benefit everyone if the research went toward trying to make the person's original body female. Hormones more or less does a good job of that, but we're far far away from ever making someone 100% female.
Basically we should find a way to change chromosomes (though this might be pointless) and a way to craft a female reproduction system (which would more or less fit with the widely accepted definition of a female).
kook !!mCVqftDha replied with this 11 years ago, 8 minutes later, 2 days after the original post[^] [v] #552,220
Broseph !!fxnDb+Ve4 replied with this 11 years ago, 6 minutes later, 2 days after the original post[^] [v] #552,221
@552,176 (Killer Lettuce !!iNo3FkiZx)
I'm not saying that the transition treatments we have now are invalid or ineffective. I'm just saying that if there was a way to alter to mind to match the sex of your genes and your body, this seems much more logical, and could actually be much easier. Even as an effective treatment, it is still logical to see it as a way of coping with the problem, not solving the problem.
While transitioning may help, there are some trans people who end up regretting it, either because they are dissatisfied with the results, or because they still feel like they don't fit inside their body and want to change it, or because they simply change their mind and want their original body back. As kook pointed out, many transition and still end up committing suicide.
I did read up on the Wikipedia article, particularly the parts about the differences in the brain you recommended. One interesting point in the genetic research was the discovery that "the male-to-female transsexuals were more likely than non-transsexual males to have a longer version of a receptor gene for the sex hormone androgen or testosterone. The research suggests reduced androgen and androgen signaling contributes to the female gender identity of male to female transsexuals. The authors say that a decrease in testosterone levels in the brain during development might prevent complete masculinization of the brain in male to female transsexuals and thereby cause a more feminized brain and a female gender identity." This could mean that treatment could be as simple as a steroid treatment that could trigger those parts of the brain to develop, possibly even a synthetic androgen specifically designed to target those receptors which have been altered by the longer version of the receptor gene.
I'm not saying that the transition treatments we have now are invalid or ineffective. I'm just saying that if there was a way to alter to mind to match the sex of your genes and your body, this seems much more logical, and could actually be much easier. Even as an effective treatment, it is still logical to see it as a way of coping with the problem, not solving the problem.
While transitioning may help, there are some trans people who end up regretting it, either because they are dissatisfied with the results, or because they still feel like they don't fit inside their body and want to change it, or because they simply change their mind and want their original body back. As kook pointed out, many transition and still end up committing suicide.
I did read up on the Wikipedia article, particularly the parts about the differences in the brain you recommended. One interesting point in the genetic research was the discovery that "the male-to-female transsexuals were more likely than non-transsexual males to have a longer version of a receptor gene for the sex hormone androgen or testosterone. The research suggests reduced androgen and androgen signaling contributes to the female gender identity of male to female transsexuals. The authors say that a decrease in testosterone levels in the brain during development might prevent complete masculinization of the brain in male to female transsexuals and thereby cause a more feminized brain and a female gender identity." This could mean that treatment could be as simple as a steroid treatment that could trigger those parts of the brain to develop, possibly even a synthetic androgen specifically designed to target those receptors which have been altered by the longer version of the receptor gene.
Broseph !!fxnDb+Ve4 double-posted this 11 years ago, 2 minutes later, 2 days after the original post[^] [v] #552,223
@552,217 (Catherine !TGirlYJKXM)
That's never going to happen. It seems to be wishful thinking on your part. Like kook said, it's easier to treat the brain.
That's never going to happen. It seems to be wishful thinking on your part. Like kook said, it's easier to treat the brain.
Anonymous H replied with this 11 years ago, 19 minutes later, 2 days after the original post[^] [v] #552,239
@552,217 (Catherine !TGirlYJKXM)
> This is great, but where do you find the bodies?
Go to a forum where men want to be woman. There will be women who want to be a man. Exchange photos (You have to show yourself as totally male.
Simple enough.
> This is great, but where do you find the bodies?
Go to a forum where men want to be woman. There will be women who want to be a man. Exchange photos (You have to show yourself as totally male.
Simple enough.
Killer Lettuce !!iNo3FkiZx replied with this 11 years ago, 32 minutes later, 2 days after the original post[^] [v] #552,253
@552,221 (Broseph !!fxnDb+Ve4)
Is it illogical to see it as a solution, though? Let's say, hypothetically, that both treatments were to be developed to the point of near perfection, that a brain's gender identity could be easily changed or that a person's body could effectively be changed to the opposite sex. The problem presented by gender dysphoria is a mismatch between biological sex and gender identity, and either one of those treatments would solve that issue. And if we end up with a happy, psychologically healthy human being in the end, surely that's the most important thing?
And whilst I can accept the possibility that altering the brain might be more straightforward, I'd still support the option of sex-reassignment being avaliable instead. Becuase then, going back to your earlier example, aren't transexuals in the same boat as homosexuals if they could indeed potentially transition perfectly? Even now, it seems that many are pretty happy with their transition. So with lack of any real negative consequences on either side, how they deal with it looks like more of a personal choice, to me.
Also, I agree that transitioning isn't for everyone. Though the evidence does suggest that the majority seem to be happy with it. So while it shouldn't be viewed as a universal fix for all transexuals , it's still effective enough to be viewed as a legitimate treatment. Just like how some people can have bad reactions to certain types of drugs, but the drugs still see use because most people get on fine with them. Still, I've always thought it a good idea for transexuals to put a lot of thought into it before transitioning. It is a big decision to make, after all.
> This could mean that treatment could be as simple as a steroid treatment that could trigger those parts of the brain to develop
Hmmm. Yeah, I think I might be allright with that, were it ever to prove effective. It'd just mean a minor treatment during pregnancy, or early childhood, I suppose. Stop it from ever becoming an issue in the first place.
Though... I dunno if that presents some sort of an ethical issue? Like, if we could also change a person's sexuality before birth, that'd probably be looked on as a gross violation of that person's freedom? But then, we'd also be saving them the whole stress of going through gender dysphoria too. Eh, I dunno. Put me down as a tentative "yes" for now.
Is it illogical to see it as a solution, though? Let's say, hypothetically, that both treatments were to be developed to the point of near perfection, that a brain's gender identity could be easily changed or that a person's body could effectively be changed to the opposite sex. The problem presented by gender dysphoria is a mismatch between biological sex and gender identity, and either one of those treatments would solve that issue. And if we end up with a happy, psychologically healthy human being in the end, surely that's the most important thing?
And whilst I can accept the possibility that altering the brain might be more straightforward, I'd still support the option of sex-reassignment being avaliable instead. Becuase then, going back to your earlier example, aren't transexuals in the same boat as homosexuals if they could indeed potentially transition perfectly? Even now, it seems that many are pretty happy with their transition. So with lack of any real negative consequences on either side, how they deal with it looks like more of a personal choice, to me.
Also, I agree that transitioning isn't for everyone. Though the evidence does suggest that the majority seem to be happy with it. So while it shouldn't be viewed as a universal fix for all transexuals , it's still effective enough to be viewed as a legitimate treatment. Just like how some people can have bad reactions to certain types of drugs, but the drugs still see use because most people get on fine with them. Still, I've always thought it a good idea for transexuals to put a lot of thought into it before transitioning. It is a big decision to make, after all.
> This could mean that treatment could be as simple as a steroid treatment that could trigger those parts of the brain to develop
Hmmm. Yeah, I think I might be allright with that, were it ever to prove effective. It'd just mean a minor treatment during pregnancy, or early childhood, I suppose. Stop it from ever becoming an issue in the first place.
Though... I dunno if that presents some sort of an ethical issue? Like, if we could also change a person's sexuality before birth, that'd probably be looked on as a gross violation of that person's freedom? But then, we'd also be saving them the whole stress of going through gender dysphoria too. Eh, I dunno. Put me down as a tentative "yes" for now.
Broseph !!fxnDb+Ve4 replied with this 11 years ago, 4 hours later, 3 days after the original post[^] [v] #552,362
@previous (Killer Lettuce !!iNo3FkiZx)
It is logical to see it as a viable treatment, but not logical to see it as a cure. As I said, when therapists first started to try to treat gender dysmorphia and failed to find anyway to alter the mind, they resolved to change the body instead. Anything to improve the quality of life of those suffering. A noble cause. It doesn't change the fact that the problem is in the brain, not the genes or the physical body.
Think of it like this. There are other types of body dysmorphia unrelated to gender. There are people who hate their right leg and are obsessed with getting it removed. They will risk their lives trying to perform self amputations. Therapists will do anything they can to help them, but amputation is not an option, because they will do no harm. They insist on trying to solve the problem in the brain that makes this person want to cut off their leg. Now, let's say this person become suicidal, or if not suicidal at least willing to risk their life to cut off the leg themselves without professional help. So, let's say a doctor says fine and agrees to amputate because it will prevent them from risking their life and may do more good than harm when it comes to improving quality of life. This is a solution, but not a cure. They have appeased the condition but they haven't solved the problem in the brain that made them want to cut off their leg in the first place. The consequences of cutting off the leg might make the patient realize that it wasn't such a good idea after all, or the compulsion may move to other limbs, or both. It is wiser to get to the real problem. This situation is no different. Even if we lived in some strange sci-fi world where genes and bodies could be easily changed, it is still more logical to look directly at the real problem. Cutting off a limb that is infected with gangrene is a treatment for gangrene, but not a cure for gangrene.
Also, the treatment we're talking about doesn't necessarily have to applied in the womb or before puberty. Just as hormones can change the body even after puberty, I think it's safe to assume it's at least possible, especially with the brain's plasticity, that hormones can change the brain as well. A few steroid treatments, along with therapy to help them cope with the changes, could be all it takes to kickstart a transgender's person brain into matching their genetic sex.
I reiterate my first point though. Even if such treatment were possible, there are SJWs and people like Catherine who view it as "fascist" and are too obsessed with how the disorder has integrated into what they view as their identity that they won't even give their natural sex a chance. The very idea creates too much cognitive dissonance. If they did try it though, they'd wonder why they were so resistant to being with, because cognitive dissonance does that.
It is logical to see it as a viable treatment, but not logical to see it as a cure. As I said, when therapists first started to try to treat gender dysmorphia and failed to find anyway to alter the mind, they resolved to change the body instead. Anything to improve the quality of life of those suffering. A noble cause. It doesn't change the fact that the problem is in the brain, not the genes or the physical body.
Think of it like this. There are other types of body dysmorphia unrelated to gender. There are people who hate their right leg and are obsessed with getting it removed. They will risk their lives trying to perform self amputations. Therapists will do anything they can to help them, but amputation is not an option, because they will do no harm. They insist on trying to solve the problem in the brain that makes this person want to cut off their leg. Now, let's say this person become suicidal, or if not suicidal at least willing to risk their life to cut off the leg themselves without professional help. So, let's say a doctor says fine and agrees to amputate because it will prevent them from risking their life and may do more good than harm when it comes to improving quality of life. This is a solution, but not a cure. They have appeased the condition but they haven't solved the problem in the brain that made them want to cut off their leg in the first place. The consequences of cutting off the leg might make the patient realize that it wasn't such a good idea after all, or the compulsion may move to other limbs, or both. It is wiser to get to the real problem. This situation is no different. Even if we lived in some strange sci-fi world where genes and bodies could be easily changed, it is still more logical to look directly at the real problem. Cutting off a limb that is infected with gangrene is a treatment for gangrene, but not a cure for gangrene.
Also, the treatment we're talking about doesn't necessarily have to applied in the womb or before puberty. Just as hormones can change the body even after puberty, I think it's safe to assume it's at least possible, especially with the brain's plasticity, that hormones can change the brain as well. A few steroid treatments, along with therapy to help them cope with the changes, could be all it takes to kickstart a transgender's person brain into matching their genetic sex.
I reiterate my first point though. Even if such treatment were possible, there are SJWs and people like Catherine who view it as "fascist" and are too obsessed with how the disorder has integrated into what they view as their identity that they won't even give their natural sex a chance. The very idea creates too much cognitive dissonance. If they did try it though, they'd wonder why they were so resistant to being with, because cognitive dissonance does that.
(Edited 1 minute later.)
Catherine !TGirlYJKXM (OP) replied with this 11 years ago, 50 minutes later, 3 days after the original post[^] [v] #552,365
@552,223 (Broseph !!fxnDb+Ve4)
Is it? Is it really? There have been reports about the possibility of artificial uteruses for barren women. Obviously, they will benefit first from this research, but it may someday become possible for transwomen to receive such treatment.
http://motherboard.vice.com/read/artificial-wombs-are-coming-and-the-controversys-already-here
http://www.geneticliteracyproject.org/2015/01/04/artificial-wombs-the-coming-era-of-motherless-births/
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Artificial_uterus
The first three results of a Google search for "artificial uteruses".
Also, this too.
http://www.dailymail.co.uk/health/article-2945943/Woman-95-MALE-DNA-gives-birth-twins-doctors-medical-miracle.html
Is it? Is it really? There have been reports about the possibility of artificial uteruses for barren women. Obviously, they will benefit first from this research, but it may someday become possible for transwomen to receive such treatment.
http://motherboard.vice.com/read/artificial-wombs-are-coming-and-the-controversys-already-here
http://www.geneticliteracyproject.org/2015/01/04/artificial-wombs-the-coming-era-of-motherless-births/
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Artificial_uterus
The first three results of a Google search for "artificial uteruses".
Also, this too.
http://www.dailymail.co.uk/health/article-2945943/Woman-95-MALE-DNA-gives-birth-twins-doctors-medical-miracle.html
kook !!mCVqftDha replied with this 11 years ago, 8 minutes later, 3 days after the original post[^] [v] #552,367
@previous (Catherine !TGirlYJKXM)
But that is just a uterus. Trans women will never be able to make eggs. Its okay that not everyone gets to be pregnant.
But that is just a uterus. Trans women will never be able to make eggs. Its okay that not everyone gets to be pregnant.
Catherine !TGirlYJKXM (OP) replied with this 11 years ago, 4 minutes later, 3 days after the original post[^] [v] #552,368
@previous (kook !!mCVqftDha)
I wouldn't entirely rule it out right now, but they would probably never be fertile within the 21st century.
I wouldn't entirely rule it out right now, but they would probably never be fertile within the 21st century.
Killer Lettuce !!iNo3FkiZx replied with this 11 years ago, 6 hours later, 3 days after the original post[^] [v] #552,428
@552,362 (Broseph !!fxnDb+Ve4)
Sorry, bud, but I'm not going to be adopting your view any time soon. In my view, either solution fixes the problem, and gives the person a choice in the matter. But you don't seem willing to accept that a mismatched gender identity is anything other than a problem that needs to be "corrected", rather than an aspect that a person might like about themselves, or have internalised as a part of their very identity.
You just don't seem to care about their happiness as much as your own view of what is "correct". I've already given you evidence that even today's sex-reassignment surgeries can make transexuals happy, but you don't seem to care about that.
> they won't even give their natural sex a chance.
One wonders if any well-meaning but close-minded people have said something similar about homosexuals?
> If they did try it though, they'd wonder why they were so resistant to being with
You can't really know that for sure.
@552,367 (kook !!mCVqftDha)
Though we could still give them donar eggs, if they wanted.
Sorry, bud, but I'm not going to be adopting your view any time soon. In my view, either solution fixes the problem, and gives the person a choice in the matter. But you don't seem willing to accept that a mismatched gender identity is anything other than a problem that needs to be "corrected", rather than an aspect that a person might like about themselves, or have internalised as a part of their very identity.
You just don't seem to care about their happiness as much as your own view of what is "correct". I've already given you evidence that even today's sex-reassignment surgeries can make transexuals happy, but you don't seem to care about that.
> they won't even give their natural sex a chance.
One wonders if any well-meaning but close-minded people have said something similar about homosexuals?
> If they did try it though, they'd wonder why they were so resistant to being with
You can't really know that for sure.
@552,367 (kook !!mCVqftDha)
Though we could still give them donar eggs, if they wanted.
(Edited 5 minutes later.)
Broseph !!fxnDb+Ve4 replied with this 11 years ago, 3 hours later, 3 days after the original post[^] [v] #552,484
@552,368 (Catherine !TGirlYJKXM)
But you're not a barren woman. You are male. Do you even hear yourself? You're holding out hope that there's going to be some sci-fi world that they can change the chromosomes of every single cell in your body because of a discrepancy in your brain. If technology got that far, it makes way more sense to just fix the receptors in the brain, but you think this view is "fascist" because of your cognitive dissonance.
But you're not a barren woman. You are male. Do you even hear yourself? You're holding out hope that there's going to be some sci-fi world that they can change the chromosomes of every single cell in your body because of a discrepancy in your brain. If technology got that far, it makes way more sense to just fix the receptors in the brain, but you think this view is "fascist" because of your cognitive dissonance.
Broseph !!fxnDb+Ve4 double-posted this 11 years ago, 4 minutes later, 3 days after the original post[^] [v] #552,486
@552,428 (Killer Lettuce !!iNo3FkiZx)
I didn't say it wasn't a solution, and I'm glad that transitioning has made some people happy. But there is a difference between a solution and a cure and it is illogical to call it a "cure." If someone had gangrene in their leg, I would never tell them that we couldn't cut off their leg because that would be wrong. I'd be happy that amputating could save their life, though it would still be illogical to call this a "cure" for gangrene. Yet when I say something similar about wanting to find a real cure for a disorder that makes men want to cut off their testicles and part of their penis, I'm called homophobic.
I didn't say it wasn't a solution, and I'm glad that transitioning has made some people happy. But there is a difference between a solution and a cure and it is illogical to call it a "cure." If someone had gangrene in their leg, I would never tell them that we couldn't cut off their leg because that would be wrong. I'd be happy that amputating could save their life, though it would still be illogical to call this a "cure" for gangrene. Yet when I say something similar about wanting to find a real cure for a disorder that makes men want to cut off their testicles and part of their penis, I'm called homophobic.
Killer Lettuce !!iNo3FkiZx replied with this 11 years ago, 8 minutes later, 3 days after the original post[^] [v] #552,495
@552,484 (Broseph !!fxnDb+Ve4)
He never claimed to be a barren woman, though.
@previous (Broseph !!fxnDb+Ve4)
That's really not a valid comparison. Gangrene eats away at the flesh, it's not the same issue as transsexualism at all. I understand the comparison you're trying to make but, as I've already explained, gender dysphoria presents a different situation to a disease or issue that actively harms someone.
> Yet when I say something similar about wanting to find a real cure for a disorder that makes men want to cut off their testicles and part of their penis, I'm called homophobic.
The fact that you're pushing for a solution involving brain modification shouldn't get you labelled a bigot, but your attitude that your way is the only valid way and that their own feelings are irrelevant might.
Also, they can change their genitals if they want. It's their body. Though, ideally, they should be doing so only after careful thought and through a professional procedure.
He never claimed to be a barren woman, though.
@previous (Broseph !!fxnDb+Ve4)
That's really not a valid comparison. Gangrene eats away at the flesh, it's not the same issue as transsexualism at all. I understand the comparison you're trying to make but, as I've already explained, gender dysphoria presents a different situation to a disease or issue that actively harms someone.
> Yet when I say something similar about wanting to find a real cure for a disorder that makes men want to cut off their testicles and part of their penis, I'm called homophobic.
The fact that you're pushing for a solution involving brain modification shouldn't get you labelled a bigot, but your attitude that your way is the only valid way and that their own feelings are irrelevant might.
Also, they can change their genitals if they want. It's their body. Though, ideally, they should be doing so only after careful thought and through a professional procedure.
Broseph !!fxnDb+Ve4 replied with this 11 years ago, 37 minutes later, 3 days after the original post[^] [v] #552,506
@previous (Killer Lettuce !!iNo3FkiZx)
If it were possible to cure gender dysmorphia with a simple hormone treatment, I think it would be illogical to refuse treatment at all and modify the body instead, completely ignoring that it's a mental disorder and insisting the problem is that your sex chromosome is "wrong." That's all I'm saying. Resistance to even the idea of applying such a treatment seems to be a symptom of the disorder because of how it ties into a person's identity.
If you agree that transition should not take place until there has been careful consideration with professional help, then we should both agree that if such a treatment were possible it would be irresponsible of any therapist to not push that option before considering the option of modifying the body. Yet you and Catherine show extreme resistance to this logic.
If it were possible to cure gender dysmorphia with a simple hormone treatment, I think it would be illogical to refuse treatment at all and modify the body instead, completely ignoring that it's a mental disorder and insisting the problem is that your sex chromosome is "wrong." That's all I'm saying. Resistance to even the idea of applying such a treatment seems to be a symptom of the disorder because of how it ties into a person's identity.
If you agree that transition should not take place until there has been careful consideration with professional help, then we should both agree that if such a treatment were possible it would be irresponsible of any therapist to not push that option before considering the option of modifying the body. Yet you and Catherine show extreme resistance to this logic.
(Edited 34 seconds later.)
Killer Lettuce !!iNo3FkiZx replied with this 11 years ago, 30 minutes later, 3 days after the original post[^] [v] #552,515
@previous (Broseph !!fxnDb+Ve4)
Who says that all transexuals wouldn't even entertain the idea? Some would, some wouldn't want to go for it. And that's fine. What I take issue with is how you think that a person who would prefer sex-reassignment surgery instead must be wrong or deluded somehow.
You're coming at this from very specific biological view, as if the condition of the body is the one factor that matters and overrules anything else. But why should it? Humans are more complex than that. You can't just say that the chromosomes are the only factor that really matters in this, that's overly reductionist.
I'm not sure what you're getting at with that second part. I've only been advocating that, ideally, it should be a choice between the two, with a trans person considering both choices before deciding. You speak as if I'm trying to disparage it as an option.
Who says that all transexuals wouldn't even entertain the idea? Some would, some wouldn't want to go for it. And that's fine. What I take issue with is how you think that a person who would prefer sex-reassignment surgery instead must be wrong or deluded somehow.
You're coming at this from very specific biological view, as if the condition of the body is the one factor that matters and overrules anything else. But why should it? Humans are more complex than that. You can't just say that the chromosomes are the only factor that really matters in this, that's overly reductionist.
I'm not sure what you're getting at with that second part. I've only been advocating that, ideally, it should be a choice between the two, with a trans person considering both choices before deciding. You speak as if I'm trying to disparage it as an option.
kook !!mCVqftDha replied with this 11 years ago, 24 minutes later, 3 days after the original post[^] [v] #552,528
Killer Lettuce !!iNo3FkiZx replied with this 11 years ago, 6 minutes later, 3 days after the original post[^] [v] #552,529
@previous (kook !!mCVqftDha)
You phrase it as if the surgery and the medication are comparable. They're not, they're very different solutions that have very different outcomes for the person.
Even today, such surgeries can be done cleanly and without inflicting any real harm. So if that's what a transexual might prefer for themselves, then what's the harm in it? It wouldn't even affect you in any way.
You phrase it as if the surgery and the medication are comparable. They're not, they're very different solutions that have very different outcomes for the person.
Even today, such surgeries can be done cleanly and without inflicting any real harm. So if that's what a transexual might prefer for themselves, then what's the harm in it? It wouldn't even affect you in any way.
(Edited 40 seconds later.)
Syntax replied with this 11 years ago, 2 minutes later, 3 days after the original post[^] [v] #552,530
@552,528 (kook !!mCVqftDha)
I remember a dude who changed to a gal with all the surgery - was on a talk show years ago and then changed back and later again went male to female and again reversed back - Quick look and found this example
I remember a dude who changed to a gal with all the surgery - was on a talk show years ago and then changed back and later again went male to female and again reversed back - Quick look and found this example
Mike Penner was what you could call a guy’s guy. A sportswriter for the Los Angeles Times--you can’t get much more macho than that. So it made news across the country when he returned from an extended time-off in April 2007 and returned to the sports desk as Christine Daniels.
But Daniels’ 15 minutes of fame had been extended. In October of last year, Daniels shocked the world yet again when he returned to his job after another leave of absence. Only this time, he came back as Mike Penner. Christine Daniels transitioned again--back to a man.
Penner’s story has focused attention on buyer’s remorse. When does a person decide that a sex change wasn’t the right thing to do?
But Daniels’ 15 minutes of fame had been extended. In October of last year, Daniels shocked the world yet again when he returned to his job after another leave of absence. Only this time, he came back as Mike Penner. Christine Daniels transitioned again--back to a man.
Penner’s story has focused attention on buyer’s remorse. When does a person decide that a sex change wasn’t the right thing to do?
kook !!mCVqftDha replied with this 11 years ago, 20 minutes later, 3 days after the original post[^] [v] #552,534
@552,529 (Killer Lettuce !!iNo3FkiZx)
This isnt about it affecting me. This is about a reasonable response to a problem. If both treatments help get rid of dysphoria, than the outcomes are very similar. Having major surgery (especially cosmetic) over other simpler procedures will always seem crazy to me.
This isnt about it affecting me. This is about a reasonable response to a problem. If both treatments help get rid of dysphoria, than the outcomes are very similar. Having major surgery (especially cosmetic) over other simpler procedures will always seem crazy to me.
Killer Lettuce !!iNo3FkiZx replied with this 11 years ago, 9 minutes later, 3 days after the original post[^] [v] #552,535
@previous (kook !!mCVqftDha)
How are they similar outcomes? They have opposite effects on the person's body and gender identity.
How are they similar outcomes? They have opposite effects on the person's body and gender identity.
(Edited 15 seconds later.)
kook !!mCVqftDha replied with this 11 years ago, 4 minutes later, 3 days after the original post[^] [v] #552,537
Killer Lettuce !!iNo3FkiZx replied with this 11 years ago, 12 minutes later, 3 days after the original post[^] [v] #552,539
@previous (kook !!mCVqftDha)
Buspuppie, having your brain wired so you identify as either a man or a woman aren't similar outcomes. Having your body either untouched or remodelled to look like the other gender aren't similar outcomes.
Buspuppie, having your brain wired so you identify as either a man or a woman aren't similar outcomes. Having your body either untouched or remodelled to look like the other gender aren't similar outcomes.
kook !!mCVqftDha replied with this 11 years ago, 1 hour later, 3 days after the original post[^] [v] #552,572
@previous (Killer Lettuce !!iNo3FkiZx)
The outcome is no more gender dysphoria. Explain to me how it isn't.
The outcome is no more gender dysphoria. Explain to me how it isn't.
dw joined in and replied with this 11 years ago, 33 seconds later, 3 days after the original post[^] [v] #552,573
kook !!mCVqftDha replied with this 11 years ago, 3 minutes later, 3 days after the original post[^] [v] #552,575
@previous (dw)
The outcome is the same. No more gender dysphoria, one just comes from expensive surgery, and a long recovery.
The outcome is the same. No more gender dysphoria, one just comes from expensive surgery, and a long recovery.
Broseph !!fxnDb+Ve4 replied with this 11 years ago, 2 minutes later, 3 days after the original post[^] [v] #552,576
@552,515 (Killer Lettuce !!iNo3FkiZx)
I'm sorry if I assumed you were disparaging it as an option. I'm sorry if I disparaged transitioning. It is an effective option. Maybe I am taking a reductionist viewpoint but it is a logical viewpoint. Genes are an important factor. We have the medical knowledge to know what sex they are, and we have the medical knowledge to know that the problem is in the brain. I don't think I'm making a big leap here.
I'm sorry if I assumed you were disparaging it as an option. I'm sorry if I disparaged transitioning. It is an effective option. Maybe I am taking a reductionist viewpoint but it is a logical viewpoint. Genes are an important factor. We have the medical knowledge to know what sex they are, and we have the medical knowledge to know that the problem is in the brain. I don't think I'm making a big leap here.
Anonymous G replied with this 11 years ago, 2 hours later, 3 days after the original post[^] [v] #552,615
Some societies are beginning to accept homosexuals, the transexuals are wanting in on some of that acceptance. The same people who are championing their acceptance will be the ones defending the rights and acceptance of pedophiles in the very near future.
Killer Lettuce !!iNo3FkiZx replied with this 11 years ago, 6 minutes later, 3 days after the original post[^] [v] #552,618
@552,575 (kook !!mCVqftDha)
I know that they both solve the issue. But my point is that they have very different effects on a person's life. You can't just say "well golly gee, why don't they just choose the easier option?" because it isn't a matter of convenience. It's a matter of whether they want their gender identity to be altered or their body.
@552,576 (Broseph !!fxnDb+Ve4)
No, no, I can understand your reasoning. And you don't seem to be speaking out of any malice towards trans people. I'm just trying to empathise with how a trans person might feel, and how they might prefer their current gender identity. It's a pretty fundamental part of a person, really, and chagning it is arguably as big a change as changing the body.
But hey, to try and curtail a further 100 posts on the matter, I'll just say that your acceptance of sex-reassignment as an option is the most important thing, even if you see it as less logical than your preferred option.
I know that they both solve the issue. But my point is that they have very different effects on a person's life. You can't just say "well golly gee, why don't they just choose the easier option?" because it isn't a matter of convenience. It's a matter of whether they want their gender identity to be altered or their body.
@552,576 (Broseph !!fxnDb+Ve4)
No, no, I can understand your reasoning. And you don't seem to be speaking out of any malice towards trans people. I'm just trying to empathise with how a trans person might feel, and how they might prefer their current gender identity. It's a pretty fundamental part of a person, really, and chagning it is arguably as big a change as changing the body.
But hey, to try and curtail a further 100 posts on the matter, I'll just say that your acceptance of sex-reassignment as an option is the most important thing, even if you see it as less logical than your preferred option.
Killer Lettuce !!iNo3FkiZx double-posted this 11 years ago, 1 minute later, 3 days after the original post[^] [v] #552,620
@552,615 (G)
> The same people who are championing their acceptance will be the ones defending the rights and acceptance of pedophiles in the very near future.
Yes, because wanting to fuck kids is the same as wanting to fuck adults of the same gender or wanting to be a different gender. It has no unique problems whatsoever.
> The same people who are championing their acceptance will be the ones defending the rights and acceptance of pedophiles in the very near future.
Yes, because wanting to fuck kids is the same as wanting to fuck adults of the same gender or wanting to be a different gender. It has no unique problems whatsoever.
Catherine !TGirlYJKXM (OP) replied with this 11 years ago, 1 hour later, 3 days after the original post[^] [v] #552,647
Anonymous O joined in and replied with this 7 months ago, 10 years later, 10 years after the original post[^] [v] #1,372,508
@551,406 (Catherine !TGirlYJKXM)
> The transgender community is probably the last great civil rights movement we're seen in sometime.
A decade on, do you still stand by this statement?
> The transgender community is probably the last great civil rights movement we're seen in sometime.
A decade on, do you still stand by this statement?
Anonymous P joined in and replied with this 7 months ago, 3 minutes later, 10 years after the original post[^] [v] #1,372,509
Anonymous Q joined in and replied with this 7 months ago, 1 hour later, 10 years after the original post[^] [v] #1,372,550
Trans people have always been here, and will always be here.
Anonymous R joined in and replied with this 7 months ago, 18 minutes later, 10 years after the original post[^] [v] #1,372,558
@previous (Q)
> Trans people have always been here, and will always be here.
Just as Cancer has always been here, and will always be here.
> Trans people have always been here, and will always be here.
Just as Cancer has always been here, and will always be here.
Anonymous S joined in and replied with this 7 months ago, 2 minutes later, 10 years after the original post[^] [v] #1,372,559
I haven’t read anything in this thread, but it’s crazy that you all constantly call each other gay fags as an insult but you’ve got this much to say about gay people. You all are literally out here writing fucking essays about who’s tucking in their cock.
Anonymous T joined in and replied with this 7 months ago, 49 minutes later, 10 years after the original post[^] [v] #1,372,565
i bet cathyboi is seething rn.
@1,372,550 (Q)
until they reach 41. then they pull their approximation of black fathers.
@1,372,550 (Q)
until they reach 41. then they pull their approximation of black fathers.
Anonymous A (OP) replied with this 6 months ago, 1 month later, 10 years after the original post[^] [v] #1,383,886
Considering the complete amount of dumbass shit in this thread. Yes, they’re the last civil rights movement, plus Muslims.Anonymous L replied with this 6 months ago, 4 minutes later, 10 years after the original post[^] [v] #1,383,889
Anonymous U joined in and replied with this 6 months ago, 2 minutes later, 10 years after the original post[^] [v] #1,383,891
I tend to like Muslims. I think white people just don’t like them because they’re brown.
Anonymous U double-posted this 6 months ago, 29 seconds later, 10 years after the original post[^] [v] #1,383,892
@1,372,559 (S)
> I haven’t read anything in this thread, but it’s crazy that you all constantly call each other gay fags as an insult but you’ve got this much to say about gay people. You all are literally out here writing fucking essays about who’s tucking in their cock.
Yeah it’s because they’re right. They call each other gay fags because they are gay fags.
> I haven’t read anything in this thread, but it’s crazy that you all constantly call each other gay fags as an insult but you’ve got this much to say about gay people. You all are literally out here writing fucking essays about who’s tucking in their cock.
Yeah it’s because they’re right. They call each other gay fags because they are gay fags.
Kook !!rcSrAtaAC joined in and replied with this 6 months ago, 16 minutes later, 10 years after the original post[^] [v] #1,383,895
Kook !!rcSrAtaAC double-posted this 6 months ago, 34 seconds later, 10 years after the original post[^] [v] #1,383,896
Anonymous W joined in and replied with this 5 months ago, 1 hour later, 10 years after the original post[^] [v] #1,383,908
So the forever chemicals, micro plastics, and autism awareness helps to understand the non-gendered eunuch issue. Along with the rising (((disease))) of society.
Anonymous X joined in and replied with this 5 months ago, 2 hours later, 10 years after the original post[^] [v] #1,383,952
Father Dave !RsSxeehGwc replied with this 5 months ago, 3 minutes later, 10 years after the original post[^] [v] #1,383,953
This post has no other purpose than to bag the 100th post in this thread. What some of you call the "100 get" post.
tteh !MemesToDNA joined in and replied with this 5 months ago, 14 minutes later, 10 years after the original post[^] [v] #1,383,954
Kook !!rcSrAtaAC replied with this 5 months ago, 4 minutes later, 10 years after the original post[^] [v] #1,383,959
tteh !MemesToDNA replied with this 5 months ago, 3 minutes later, 10 years after the original post[^] [v] #1,383,960
@1,383,952 (X)
> > Many Muslims are what I'd call White
>
> You are alone in that opinion.
Circassians? Chechens? The Ingush?
> > Many Muslims are what I'd call White
>
> You are alone in that opinion.
Circassians? Chechens? The Ingush?
Oatmeal Fucker !BYUc1TwJMU joined in and replied with this 5 months ago, 19 minutes later, 10 years after the original post[^] [v] #1,383,968
Killer Lettuce🌹 !HonkUK.BIE replied with this 5 months ago, 20 minutes later, 10 years after the original post[^] [v] #1,383,975
@1,383,952 (X)
There are pretty large, intergenerational populations of white Muslims. I think they're most prominent in European countries that used to be under Ottoman rule.
There are pretty large, intergenerational populations of white Muslims. I think they're most prominent in European countries that used to be under Ottoman rule.
Meta joined in and replied with this 5 months ago, 45 minutes later, 10 years after the original post[^] [v] #1,383,982
Fake anon !ZkUt8arUCU joined in and replied with this 5 months ago, 5 minutes later, 10 years after the original post[^] [v] #1,383,984
Killer Lettuce🌹 !HonkUK.BIE replied with this 5 months ago, 11 minutes later, 10 years after the original post[^] [v] #1,383,986
@1,383,982 (Meta)
I wonder how he's doing in his political exile in Russia? Hope he's learning the language okay.
I wonder how he's doing in his political exile in Russia? Hope he's learning the language okay.
Anonymous Z-5 joined in and replied with this 5 months ago, 1 hour later, 10 years after the original post[^] [v] #1,384,002
Can't believe this topic is a decade old...
Anonymous Z-6 joined in and replied with this 5 months ago, 3 hours later, 10 years after the original post[^] [v] #1,384,015
Anonymous B replied with this 5 months ago, 2 hours later, 10 years after the original post[^] [v] #1,384,024
oh shit i was right about everything
Killer Lettuce🌹 !HonkUK.BIE replied with this 5 months ago, 3 hours later, 10 years after the original post[^] [v] #1,384,046
@previous (B)
I don't know, things could still turn around. Let's check on it again in another decade.
I don't know, things could still turn around. Let's check on it again in another decade.
Anonymous Z-7 joined in and replied with this 5 months ago, 1 day later, 10 years after the original post[^] [v] #1,384,351
Transformers!
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gq3d91VGQBs
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gq3d91VGQBs