Topic: Christians justifying God's refusal to answer prayers.
Anonymous A started this discussion 11 years ago #40,955
So, imagine a situation like a child having cancer. You pray fervently and truly, as a Christian, for God to heal that poor little child's horrible, painful, miserable life. But instead, the child dies miserably. How can a Christian somehow justify the FACT that God simply did NOT answer that prayer?
Anonymous B joined in and replied with this 11 years ago, 13 minutes later[^] [v] #544,618
because god doesn't exist
The Owl !KThEOwLwbU joined in and replied with this 11 years ago, 1 minute later, 15 minutes after the original post[^] [v] #544,620
Romans 9:21: Hath not the potter power over the clay, of the same lump to make one vessel unto honour, and another unto dishonour?
Your objection is founded on a misunderstanding of the relationship between God and His sinful creatures. You make the supposition that God has an obligation to extend His grace to all (Which makes it wrong when he does not live up to that obligation), when in actuality He is obligated to nobody and nothing. Everybody is a sinner and as such has forfeited all claims to God's grace. God has sovereign and unlimited power over all his creatures, and there is nothing unjust in this sovereignty. Therefore, it is perfectly fine for God to save one person and not another person, according to his designs.
Source: Ex-Christian
FuckAlms !vX8K53rFBI joined in and replied with this 11 years ago, 4 minutes later, 20 minutes after the original post[^] [v] #544,622
The Owl !KThEOwLwbU replied with this 11 years ago, 2 minutes later, 23 minutes after the original post[^] [v] #544,625
@previous (FuckAlms !vX8K53rFBI)
That doesn't mean your sins are automatically forgiven as soon as they happen. You need to repent first of all. Also all that really means is that humans are able to go to Heaven now instead of Hell (or Limbo if you are a certain type of Catholic). Jesus dying to redeem us of our sins does not create an obligation for God to cure you of cancer.
That doesn't mean your sins are automatically forgiven as soon as they happen. You need to repent first of all. Also all that really means is that humans are able to go to Heaven now instead of Hell (or Limbo if you are a certain type of Catholic). Jesus dying to redeem us of our sins does not create an obligation for God to cure you of cancer.
FuckAlms !vX8K53rFBI replied with this 11 years ago, 3 hours later, 3 hours after the original post[^] [v] #544,641
@previous (The Owl !KThEOwLwbU)
I'm just saying if he's going to hold the fact that we commit sins against us, then Jesus might as well have died for nothing.
I'm just saying if he's going to hold the fact that we commit sins against us, then Jesus might as well have died for nothing.
Killer Lettuce !!iNo3FkiZx joined in and replied with this 11 years ago, 9 minutes later, 3 hours after the original post[^] [v] #544,646
@544,620 (The Owl !KThEOwLwbU)
"You're all bad anyway, and God has his own motivations which you shouldn't try to understand. So he is justified in doing whatever he wants to you."
allright
"You're all bad anyway, and God has his own motivations which you shouldn't try to understand. So he is justified in doing whatever he wants to you."
allright
squeegee joined in and replied with this 11 years ago, 4 minutes later, 3 hours after the original post[^] [v] #544,649
for every child who dies of cancer someone else's team wins the super bowl or someone hits a jackpot at a casino.
sometimes it's another child who makes the winning basket in a game of driveway HORSE.
you only get one, so use it wisely
sometimes it's another child who makes the winning basket in a game of driveway HORSE.
you only get one, so use it wisely
Anonymous G joined in and replied with this 11 years ago, 22 minutes later, 4 hours after the original post[^] [v] #544,651
I feel like the idea of intercessory prayer introduces a lot of problems for an all-powerful God. If the universe is as he wills it, then why would he cause events to occur in such a manner that he has to go back and change if someone should ask him to? Isn't setting up obstacles that you can pray to overcome antithetical to giving us free will? Of course there is no all-powerful God, but the idea that there is and that he is constantly tinkering with the universe he created to satisfy prayers strikes me as odd: On one hand you're trusting in God's plan for you, but on the other hand you can ask him to alter his plan according to your needs.
Anonymous H joined in and replied with this 11 years ago, 3 minutes later, 4 hours after the original post[^] [v] #544,652
Killer Lettuce !!iNo3FkiZx replied with this 11 years ago, 1 minute later, 4 hours after the original post[^] [v] #544,653
@previous (H)
Last I heard, Ash is an atheist (unless that's changed since then). I think he was just explaining the Christian viewpoint.
Last I heard, Ash is an atheist (unless that's changed since then). I think he was just explaining the Christian viewpoint.
(Edited 16 seconds later.)
Anonymous H replied with this 11 years ago, 3 minutes later, 4 hours after the original post[^] [v] #544,656
@previous (Killer Lettuce !!iNo3FkiZx)
Do you think he could also explain the Cheetos stained fingers in your Mountain Dew filled throat?
Do you think he could also explain the Cheetos stained fingers in your Mountain Dew filled throat?
(Edited 20 seconds later.)
Anonymous G replied with this 11 years ago, 10 minutes later, 4 hours after the original post[^] [v] #544,657
Anonymous I joined in and replied with this 11 years ago, 50 minutes later, 5 hours after the original post[^] [v] #544,666
I saw god.... He was floating face down in the toilet before I flushed it.
Syntax joined in and replied with this 11 years ago, 10 minutes later, 5 hours after the original post[^] [v] #544,668
Around So Calif Jesus often appears as such.Anonymous H replied with this 11 years ago, 3 minutes later, 5 hours after the original post[^] [v] #544,670
The Owl !KThEOwLwbU replied with this 11 years ago, 52 minutes later, 6 hours after the original post[^] [v] #544,678
@544,646 (Killer Lettuce !!iNo3FkiZx)
Well it's not really a case of him doing whatever he wants to you, it's more that he can do whatever he likes and doesn't have to take your orders. I was also explaining that according to the Christian concept, the child with cancer is not some paragon of purity and innocence who deserves to be miraculously cured so s/he won't die. I thought it deserved mentioning because OP is taking advantage of Western cultural viewpoints of childhood and death in order to manipulate an agenda. It's a false premise because it assumes that the child who has terminal cancer is a pure being (Because children are associated with purity, which originates from the Victorian "cult of the child") who deserves to live a long life, and that death is an evil thing which is a punishment for the child (Because death is taboo in modern Western life). None of those premises are arguments that Christianity runs with, so using them to argue against Christianity is pointless.
I guess a clear way to summarise my answer to the OP's question would be "A Christian would say that God can answer or not answer prayers whether you want him to or not, just because he's God and you're not. He would also say that humankind is not in a position to be telling God what is and isn't the correct or moral thing to be doing, because God is God and therefore decides what is and isn't correct and moral. He would probably reference Romans 9:20-21 as well as Luke 4:9-12 to show that it is sinful to tell God to do something and then say He is evil because He doesn't want to, and demonstrate that the urge to remonstrate against God and rebel against Him ("I would have done everything I could to save that boy! I hate God because He didn't!") because of that is actually a subtle form of temptation to sin by the Devil, who hates God and wishes to lead people away from Him. He would tell you that to not accept God's course of action as the just one is sinful in and of itself, because you asked him to do something but demonstrated a lack of faith in him as a result of that - a form of testing God, forbidden in Deuteronomy 6:16. He would probably conclude that the prayer was in fact not ignored - just answered in a way that you did not want. If you ask for God to 'heal that poor little child's painful life' and the child dies, then the request is fulfilled; the child is in Paradise and no longer suffers at all."
And yes, I'm still an atheist. I try to learn about the religions and deities I claim not to believe in, in case I'm wrong. So far nothing has really won me over, but who knows.
Well it's not really a case of him doing whatever he wants to you, it's more that he can do whatever he likes and doesn't have to take your orders. I was also explaining that according to the Christian concept, the child with cancer is not some paragon of purity and innocence who deserves to be miraculously cured so s/he won't die. I thought it deserved mentioning because OP is taking advantage of Western cultural viewpoints of childhood and death in order to manipulate an agenda. It's a false premise because it assumes that the child who has terminal cancer is a pure being (Because children are associated with purity, which originates from the Victorian "cult of the child") who deserves to live a long life, and that death is an evil thing which is a punishment for the child (Because death is taboo in modern Western life). None of those premises are arguments that Christianity runs with, so using them to argue against Christianity is pointless.
I guess a clear way to summarise my answer to the OP's question would be "A Christian would say that God can answer or not answer prayers whether you want him to or not, just because he's God and you're not. He would also say that humankind is not in a position to be telling God what is and isn't the correct or moral thing to be doing, because God is God and therefore decides what is and isn't correct and moral. He would probably reference Romans 9:20-21 as well as Luke 4:9-12 to show that it is sinful to tell God to do something and then say He is evil because He doesn't want to, and demonstrate that the urge to remonstrate against God and rebel against Him ("I would have done everything I could to save that boy! I hate God because He didn't!") because of that is actually a subtle form of temptation to sin by the Devil, who hates God and wishes to lead people away from Him. He would tell you that to not accept God's course of action as the just one is sinful in and of itself, because you asked him to do something but demonstrated a lack of faith in him as a result of that - a form of testing God, forbidden in Deuteronomy 6:16. He would probably conclude that the prayer was in fact not ignored - just answered in a way that you did not want. If you ask for God to 'heal that poor little child's painful life' and the child dies, then the request is fulfilled; the child is in Paradise and no longer suffers at all."
And yes, I'm still an atheist. I try to learn about the religions and deities I claim not to believe in, in case I'm wrong. So far nothing has really won me over, but who knows.
Syntax replied with this 11 years ago, 4 minutes later, 6 hours after the original post[^] [v] #544,680
@previous (The Owl !KThEOwLwbU)
> I try to learn about the religions and deities I claim not to believe in, in case I'm wrong.
Based on wot I read re Christianity, You can decided on last second of life to go with the flow and go with Jesus and enter Heaven.
Seems simple enough to not have to deal with years of Church going, much less the cost of contributing, when it only takes one second at end of life to join up.
> I try to learn about the religions and deities I claim not to believe in, in case I'm wrong.
Based on wot I read re Christianity, You can decided on last second of life to go with the flow and go with Jesus and enter Heaven.
Seems simple enough to not have to deal with years of Church going, much less the cost of contributing, when it only takes one second at end of life to join up.
Anonymous H replied with this 11 years ago, 4 minutes later, 6 hours after the original post[^] [v] #544,681
The Owl !KThEOwLwbU replied with this 11 years ago, 47 minutes later, 7 hours after the original post[^] [v] #544,690
@544,680 (Syntax)
The Parable of the Fig Tree suggests that God has patience for people who don't immediately repent -- but that at some point, his patience will be at an end and that person will be cut down. The criminal who was crucified with Jesus shows that last-second conversions are actually possible, but also warns to do it sooner rather than later.
James 4:14: Whereas ye know not what shall be on the morrow. For what is your life? It is even a vapour, that appeareth for a little time, and then vanisheth away.
Nobody knows when or how they will die. What if that "one second at end of life to join up" isn't available? Many people die without being able to spend time in a deathbed. What if you died instantly in a car crash tomorrow?
Hebrews 3:7-8: To day if ye will hear his voice, Harden not your hearts, as in the provocation, in the day of temptation in the wilderness
Also if you only "repent" so you can go to heaven and you don't actually believe then you won't fool God:
Psalm 44:20-21: If we had forgotten the name of our God Or extended our hands to a strange god, Would not God find this out? For He knows the secrets of the heart.
Luke 16:15: And he said unto [the Pharisees], Ye are they which justify yourselves before men; but God knoweth your hearts: for that which is highly esteemed among men is abomination in the sight of God.
And if you do actually believe but decided that a comfortable life on Earth was better than doing your Christian duty:
The Parable of the Fig Tree suggests that God has patience for people who don't immediately repent -- but that at some point, his patience will be at an end and that person will be cut down. The criminal who was crucified with Jesus shows that last-second conversions are actually possible, but also warns to do it sooner rather than later.
James 4:14: Whereas ye know not what shall be on the morrow. For what is your life? It is even a vapour, that appeareth for a little time, and then vanisheth away.
Nobody knows when or how they will die. What if that "one second at end of life to join up" isn't available? Many people die without being able to spend time in a deathbed. What if you died instantly in a car crash tomorrow?
Hebrews 3:7-8: To day if ye will hear his voice, Harden not your hearts, as in the provocation, in the day of temptation in the wilderness
Also if you only "repent" so you can go to heaven and you don't actually believe then you won't fool God:
Psalm 44:20-21: If we had forgotten the name of our God Or extended our hands to a strange god, Would not God find this out? For He knows the secrets of the heart.
Luke 16:15: And he said unto [the Pharisees], Ye are they which justify yourselves before men; but God knoweth your hearts: for that which is highly esteemed among men is abomination in the sight of God.
And if you do actually believe but decided that a comfortable life on Earth was better than doing your Christian duty:
“There was a rich man who was clothed in purple and fine linen and who feasted sumptuously every day. And at his gate was laid a poor man named Lazarus, covered with sores, who desired to be fed with what fell from the rich man's table. Moreover, even the dogs came and licked his sores. The poor man died and was carried by the angels to Abraham's side. The rich man also died and was buried, and in Hades, being in torment, he lifted up his eyes and saw Abraham far off and Lazarus at his side. And he called out, ‘Father Abraham, have mercy on me, and send Lazarus to dip the end of his finger in water and cool my tongue, for I am in anguish in this flame.’ But Abraham said, ‘Child, remember that you in your lifetime received your good things, and Lazarus in like manner bad things; but now he is comforted here, and you are in anguish. And besides all this, between us and you a great chasm has been fixed, in order that those who would pass from here to you may not be able, and none may cross from there to us.’ And he said, ‘Then I beg you, father, to send him to my father's house— for I have five brothers—so that he may warn them, lest they also come into this place of torment.’ But Abraham said, ‘They have Moses and the Prophets; let them hear them.’ And he said, ‘No, father Abraham, but if someone goes to them from the dead, they will repent.’ He said to him, ‘If they do not hear Moses and the Prophets, neither will they be convinced if someone should rise from the dead.’”
Syntax replied with this 11 years ago, 16 minutes later, 7 hours after the original post[^] [v] #544,693
@previous (The Owl !KThEOwLwbU)
You stopped reading at Luke 16:15 - move on forward 2 Luke 23:43
You stopped reading at Luke 16:15 - move on forward 2 Luke 23:43
You see, it's never too late for us to turn to Christ - because God has promised to forgive anyone who honestly turns to Him in repentance and faith. Do you remember the two criminals who were crucified with Jesus? One mocked Jesus and refused to believe He was the Savior - but the other turned to Jesus in faith and trust, believing that Jesus could forgive his sins and give him the gift of eternal life. He was only hours away from death -- but Jesus still welcomed him. He said,
"I tell you the truth, today you will be with me in paradise" (Luke 23:43).
"I tell you the truth, today you will be with me in paradise" (Luke 23:43).
(Edited 32 seconds later.)
A Doctor replied with this 11 years ago, 7 minutes later, 7 hours after the original post[^] [v] #544,694
Syntax replied with this 11 years ago, 12 minutes later, 8 hours after the original post[^] [v] #544,695
@previous (A Doctor)
Do you think The Owl or anyone here is going to page thru the bible for this kinda shit?
Also you got the handle A Doctor from Google so stop whining
Do you think The Owl or anyone here is going to page thru the bible for this kinda shit?
Also you got the handle A Doctor from Google so stop whining
A Doctor replied with this 11 years ago, 26 minutes later, 8 hours after the original post[^] [v] #544,697
Anonymous K joined in and replied with this 11 years ago, 1 day later, 1 day after the original post[^] [v] #545,021
@544,678 (The Owl !KThEOwLwbU)
Then what is the point of praying? If He will just do what He wants anyway, and ignore my prayers, and all of this "cannot understand His mysterious ways" stuff, why should I even pray?
Then what is the point of praying? If He will just do what He wants anyway, and ignore my prayers, and all of this "cannot understand His mysterious ways" stuff, why should I even pray?
Anonymous G replied with this 11 years ago, 41 minutes later, 1 day after the original post[^] [v] #545,024
@previous (K)
The Lord's Prayer AKA the way Jesus advises us to pray just seems to be a reminder that God's will is being done and you should try be a part of it and to act in accordance with it. What will happen will happen and if you want forgiveness you should be forgiving. (Maybe not to fig trees. Fuck fig trees.) I suppose if there were an all-powerful God this kind of prayer might make sense. You are just reminding Him (and maybe, more importantly, yourself) that you are trying to be good and part of his plan. Getting everyone into the "do unto others" spirit, as it were.
The Lord's Prayer AKA the way Jesus advises us to pray just seems to be a reminder that God's will is being done and you should try be a part of it and to act in accordance with it. What will happen will happen and if you want forgiveness you should be forgiving. (Maybe not to fig trees. Fuck fig trees.) I suppose if there were an all-powerful God this kind of prayer might make sense. You are just reminding Him (and maybe, more importantly, yourself) that you are trying to be good and part of his plan. Getting everyone into the "do unto others" spirit, as it were.