Topic: There is no way for Christians to ever know if God answers prayer.
Anonymous A started this discussion 12 years ago#38,200
If they pray for something and it happens, they say, "God answered my prayer," even though it could have happened anyway. If it does not happen, then they make up some excuse about "not His will" or something like that. In other words, you could pray to a brick and get the same results.
Anonymous A (OP) replied with this 12 years ago, 5 minutes later, 20 minutes after the original post[^][v]#511,315
@previous (squeegee)
But how could anyone be comforted by something that never happens?
Killer Lettuce !!iNo3FkiZx joined in and replied with this 12 years ago, 43 minutes later, 1 hour after the original post[^][v]#511,318
@OP
Cofimation bias. "Answered" prayers are of course held up as evidence of God, whilst the handwaves of "God works in mysterious ways" or "God is testing us" have become the go-to justifications for unanswered prayers.
@511,312 (A)
Because they really want to believe it's true, or cannot conceive of it not being true. There are vast multitudes of evidence poking holes in the assorted religions, but firm believers will just downplay or try to work around any evidence that threatens their belief system.
Anonymous A (OP) replied with this 12 years ago, 4 minutes later, 1 hour after the original post[^][v]#511,319
Anonymous E joined in and replied with this 12 years ago, 3 hours later, 4 hours after the original post[^][v]#511,331
@511,312 (A)
Just as it cannot be proven, it cannot be disproven for sure. Just because you think it's bullshit doesn't means it's "clearly not true". Get off your high horse, you know about these things as much as the old christian lady next door does.
You peasants are so delusional.
Anonymous A (OP) replied with this 12 years ago, 41 seconds later, 4 hours after the original post[^][v]#511,332
@previous (E)
God should have not have said He would answer prayer, if He does not answer prayer. The Bible says it.
Anonymous F joined in and replied with this 12 years ago, 5 minutes later, 4 hours after the original post[^][v]#511,333
Killer Lettuce !!iNo3FkiZx replied with this 12 years ago, 1 minute later, 4 hours after the original post[^][v]#511,335
@511,331 (E)
Religions can certainly be disproved. They make a lot of absurd claims that science, rationalists and historians have debunked.
So, if religious teachings are wrong, what are we left with? All we're arguing over is the hypothetical existence of some invisible, intangible entity who cannot be proven to have interacted with humanity in any way.
(Edited 51 seconds later.)
kook !!32zdfdzi+ joined in and replied with this 12 years ago, 3 hours later, 7 hours after the original post[^][v]#511,355
dw !jdTkvovFCQ replied with this 12 years ago, 46 minutes later, 8 hours after the original post[^][v]#511,360
@511,312 (A)
I dont know but I find that if you actually want to talk to religious people and want a reasonable rewponse its best not to be annoying and condescending.
Anonymous H joined in and replied with this 12 years ago, 1 hour later, 10 hours after the original post[^][v]#511,369
I don't think its the same as praying to a brick, i mean at least to you atheists- the brick exists, but i get what you mean. But putting all beliefs in the same basket, well that's just not fair and i think you know it.
Anonymous I joined in and replied with this 12 years ago, 45 minutes later, 11 hours after the original post[^][v]#511,379
swamplights !!0lQNsDoq/ joined in and replied with this 12 years ago, 1 minute later, 11 hours after the original post[^][v]#511,380
@511,369 (H)
Will you please explain this a bit further?
Killer Lettuce !!iNo3FkiZx replied with this 12 years ago, 33 seconds later, 11 hours after the original post[^][v]#511,381
@511,369 (H)
Pretty much all religious beliefs can be safely classed as inconsistent and full of irrationalities. This isn't reason to dislike people just for being religious, of course, but it does not change the fact that religion, as a belief, is irrational.
Anonymous H replied with this 12 years ago, 2 minutes later, 11 hours after the original post[^][v]#511,383
Yeah but comparing a belief in an established religion with a long history.... to the belief in a brick.. simply because it has a same trait of being unproven... Well that is not fair. It is indeed like comparing people based on skin.
Killer Lettuce !!iNo3FkiZx replied with this 12 years ago, 1 minute later, 11 hours after the original post[^][v]#511,384
@511,355 (kook !!32zdfdzi+)
You're an atheist, yeah?
I'm curious, what're your feelings towards death? If that's not too personal a question, of course.
@511,379 (I)
Likewise, we wouldn't know if he did. Thus, the burden of proof is on religion or even god himself to prove that prayers are answered by divine intervention.
Fake anon !ZkUt8arUCU joined in and replied with this 12 years ago, 10 seconds later, 11 hours after the original post[^][v]#511,385
@511,335 (Killer Lettuce !!iNo3FkiZx)
Do you feel the same way about mathematics?
(Edited 24 seconds later.)
Killer Lettuce !!iNo3FkiZx replied with this 12 years ago, 1 minute later, 11 hours after the original post[^][v]#511,386
@511,383 (H)
Ah, okay, you don't actually have a point. You're just making a hamfisted attempt to compare atheists to bigots.
(Edited 3 minutes later.)
Killer Lettuce !!iNo3FkiZx double-posted this 12 years ago, 2 minutes later, 11 hours after the original post[^][v]#511,388
@511,385 (Fake anon !ZkUt8arUCU)
No. Mathematics is an abstract concept that just needs to make logical sense in and of itself. Religion relies on divine interaction with the world and historical evidence. Non-abstract stuff happening.
(Edited 1 minute later.)
Anonymous H replied with this 12 years ago, 1 minute later, 11 hours after the original post[^][v]#511,389
You can compare any belief or religion as being the same simply because their beliefs are unproven. No matter how different they are. The same can go for comparing people based on skin color.
kook !!32zdfdzi+ replied with this 12 years ago, 5 minutes later, 11 hours after the original post[^][v]#511,399
@previous (H)
But he was comparing cause and effect, not religions.
Killer Lettuce !!iNo3FkiZx replied with this 12 years ago, 2 minutes later, 11 hours after the original post[^][v]#511,400
@511,397 (H)
Wrong. Religion makes many claims that are demonstrably false, like the Earth's age or the numerous inconsistencies and falsehoods with the Bible. That's not the same as beliefs that merely cannot be disproven, as do not have any disprovable claims.
Of course, I expect you'll just keep saying this stuff anyway.
@511,392 (kook !!32zdfdzi+)
I feel about the same. About the inevitable part, anyway.
Anonymous H replied with this 12 years ago, 4 minutes later, 11 hours after the original post[^][v]#511,403
There can be many beliefs that are fundamentally different and unproven. But to compare them all as the same would still be like comparing all white people as the same, because they are white.
Killer Lettuce !!iNo3FkiZx replied with this 12 years ago, 5 minutes later, 11 hours after the original post[^][v]#511,406
@previous (H)
...How is pointing out that religious doctrine doesn't hold up under scrutiny the same as racism?
Oh, never mind. You're just going to do your usual schtick where you keep trying to make atheism look bad with you fallcy-ridden counter-points. As long as your points have no real substance, there I see no point in debating you.
(Edited 35 seconds later.)
Anonymous H replied with this 12 years ago, 2 minutes later, 11 hours after the original post[^][v]#511,407
Its not pointing out that it is unproven, its comparing them all as the same thing. Which is offensive to those with those beliefs. Just like anyone would take offene if you compared them all to be the same as everyone else who shares their skin color.
Oh, never mind. You're just going to keep thinking that not agreeing with you is an attack on atheism.
squeegee replied with this 12 years ago, 4 hours later, 16 hours after the original post[^][v]#511,443
meh, i have a hard time even caring about the meta argument between atheism and religion. it's like coming across two people heatedly discussing if some comic book story arc had a metaphorical message or not. who the fuck cares? i mean i guess obviously comic book fans care, just like religious people care about their "metaphorical story arc", but i'm like more into science fiction and video games i guess.
Anonymous E replied with this 12 years ago, 23 minutes later, 17 hours after the original post[^][v]#511,449
@previous (squeegee)
That means atheistic people care as much about the "metaphor" as religious people do.
squeegee replied with this 12 years ago, 3 hours later, 20 hours after the original post[^][v]#511,486
@previous (E)
some do, i guess, but it doesn't impact me on any day to day level so i'm casually dismissive of it. in the same way i'd be dismissive of arguments over the more subtle meanings behind classic fairy tales.
that's how i see it i guess. a priest and a rabbi are arguing over the meanings of scripture, let's say, and what i hear is equivalent to a debate over whether or not Santa claus uses elf magic to deliver all the presents on christmas eve or if he stops time with alien technology. it just doesn't resonate with me.
but some people Love talking about that shit, athiests and thiests alike. i just think the whole conversation is... not important at all. so i don't really worry about it.
(Edited 1 minute later.)
Killer Lettuce !!iNo3FkiZx replied with this 12 years ago, 2 hours later, 22 hours after the original post[^][v]#511,503
@511,449 (E)
Yes, two people can have strong, opposing viewpoints on something. That can be the case with practically anything, it doesn't make them the same. Also, just being an atheist or theist doesn't mean that one automatically has a strong opinion on the matter and enjoys debating on it.
@previous (squeegee)
Of course it's an important issue. Religion has a massive impact on the world, dictating how people see things, how they interact with others and what they might do with their lives. So if religion is wrong (which it is), then that's a whole lot of humanity being misinformed on how they live their lives.
Of course, the fate of religion won't be decided off of one Internet argument, but it is still and interesting matter to debate.
(Edited 30 seconds later.)
squeegee replied with this 12 years ago, 1 hour later, 23 hours after the original post[^][v]#511,515
@previous (Killer Lettuce !!iNo3FkiZx)
eh, yeah, i know. i just... don't care.
Anonymous L joined in and replied with this 12 years ago, 4 hours later, 1 day after the original post[^][v]#511,534
This is a tedious debate.
Some people have faith in a higher power, draw positive energy from it, and have a moral framework to work within, and believe that being good to others and kind will ensure they will have a comforting afterlife. In general, religion is a good thing, its the humans that fuck it up.
Also, religion has had untold influence on art, music and culture. You can't ignore that.
Atheists require hard science, evidence and proof rather than blind faith. The idea of a great overseer examining and influencing everyones lives is faintly ridiculous, but needs investigation. The debates surrounding spirituality are also important and help clarify aspects of human psychology, development etc.
The idea whether god actually exists is kind of irrelevant. Its what it reveals about the human race that has far more value.
-------------->Zoooooooooooooom
Killer Lettuce !!iNo3FkiZx replied with this 12 years ago, 8 hours later, 1 day after the original post[^][v]#511,636
@previous (L)
That's a very one-sided view of religion. You gloss over how it tells its people to convert others, how it encourages archaic beliefs like homophobia, or how it puts arbitrary boundaries on what people can do. It's far from all peace and love, there's plenty of angry shit in a lot of them, and it's abundantly clear that they are easy to interpret in more extreme ways.
It's interesting how you said that its people's fault rather than that of religion itself. Putting aside how religion outright tells its followers to do some bad stuff, isn't religion just a product of its followers? Throughout history, we've seen religion change and evolve at the whims of its followers or breakaway sects. Religion isn't this static set of rules that only preaches peace and love, it's a set of beliefs that can be adapted, the existence of which will usually result in rather extreme interpretations springing up.
As for the part about it influencing art and such, my response would be... Does that mean it is justified and reasonable today? Is it owed some debt for happening to influence culture? I do agree that religion played a pivotal role in human development, and we may have needed it to come together into bigger societies. But it's been outgrown. Art and culture can develop just fine without religion, these days.
Finally, as a Psychology student, I do not feel that spirituality existing is all essential for better understanding the human psyche. A secular view seems to me to be perfectly able to understand that sort of thing. Though I would be interested if you expanded on this, as I'm not sure what you were getting at specifically.
Anonymous M joined in and replied with this 12 years ago, 2 hours later, 1 day after the original post[^][v]#511,644
yeah i always make sure to tell my grandmother of the danger that comes with belief in Jesus. Every man ought to go knocking door to door and warn people about Jesus.
Killer Lettuce !!iNo3FkiZx replied with this 12 years ago, 1 hour later, 1 day after the original post[^][v]#511,648
@previous (M)
Hey man, J.C was a pretty dangerous dude. He offed a fig tree with his magical powers. If you own a garden, you should be wary of this guy.
Also, interesting fact: there is apparently no real historical evidence for the Jesus as described in the Bible having existed. People who should have mentioned him didn't, and events as presented in the Bible don't quite match up with historical records. I find it interesting how this isn't more widely discussed, but then I guess the concept of him is so deeply embedded that it's just assumed to be factual.
(Edited 2 minutes later.)
Anonymous N joined in and replied with this 12 years ago, 3 hours later, 1 day after the original post[^][v]#511,658
Maybe he answers most prayers with a "no".
Fake anon !ZkUt8arUCU replied with this 12 years ago, 2 hours later, 1 day after the original post[^][v]#511,680
Anonymous O joined in and replied with this 12 years ago, 1 minute later, 1 day after the original post[^][v]#511,682
@511,658 (N)
Then why did He, in the Bible, say that He would answer prayers?
Ks !KansasxqvM joined in and replied with this 12 years ago, 8 minutes later, 1 day after the original post[^][v]#511,687
@511,680 (Fake anon !ZkUt8arUCU)
From a Jewish perspective what are your thoughts on Jesus?
Fake anon !ZkUt8arUCU replied with this 12 years ago, 2 minutes later, 1 day after the original post[^][v]#511,689
@previous (Ks !KansasxqvM)
I used to be pretty flattered that people thought dead jews were so amazing that they were worth worshipping, but honestly at this point it is just kinda creepy. Like the dude is dead do something else with your life.
Anonymous N replied with this 12 years ago, 4 minutes later, 1 day after the original post[^][v]#511,690
> Also, interesting fact: there is apparently no real historical evidence for the Jesus as described in the Bible having existed.
You should watch The History Channel's show Ancient Aliens. They shed light on a lot of biblical mysteries. They have as regular scholars a priest/preacher or two (I can't remember) and also even have a rabbi, Ariel Bar Tzadok (he's often on), who all say it was aliens.
> People who should have mentioned him didn't, and events as presented in the Bible don't quite match up with historical records.
A lot of what people learned as history is just propaganda.
> I find it interesting how this isn't more widely discussed, but then I guess the concept of him is so deeply embedded that it's just assumed to be factual.
Are you familiar with the Jewish ritual of Kapparot? A person transfers their sins into an innocent chicken and then sacrifices the chicken. Jesus is basically one big Kapparot. It's like killing an innocent person and then setting all the people in prison free.
Killer Lettuce !!iNo3FkiZx replied with this 12 years ago, 2 minutes later, 1 day after the original post[^][v]#511,705
@511,680 (Fake anon !ZkUt8arUCU)
What's your problem with RW? I would have expected you to like them.
TTEH !JXsxEkDBLs joined in and replied with this 12 years ago, 4 hours later, 2 days after the original post[^][v]#511,729
@previous (Killer Lettuce !!iNo3FkiZx)
He only uses Metapedia.
Killer Lettuce !!iNo3FkiZx replied with this 12 years ago, 1 hour later, 2 days after the original post[^][v]#511,730
@previous (TTEH !JXsxEkDBLs)
How very masochistic of him.
squeegee replied with this 12 years ago, 3 hours later, 2 days after the original post[^][v]#511,742
Ks !KansasxqvM replied with this 12 years ago, 54 minutes later, 2 days after the original post[^][v]#511,749
@511,704 (N)
I thought you were kidding until I googled Kapparot, that's pretty far out. I have a hard time understanding how people can really believe in that stuff...
(Edited 26 seconds later.)
squeegee replied with this 12 years ago, 4 minutes later, 2 days after the original post[^][v]#511,750
@previous (Ks !KansasxqvM)
jews go back like 4 thousand years. this is exactly why i don't follow the suggestions of 2k year old goat herders.
(Edited 27 seconds later.)
Ks !KansasxqvM replied with this 12 years ago, 17 minutes later, 2 days after the original post[^][v]#511,752
@previous (squeegee)
I usually avoid talking about religion, as it's hard to walk the line of respecting people's beliefs while discussing the topic. I'm so deep into non-belief I'm constantly baffled by the things people believe. At times it seems unreal that people believe this stuff with all the evidence against it. It's like come on really??!!!?
TTEH !JXsxEkDBLs replied with this 12 years ago, 14 minutes later, 2 days after the original post[^][v]#511,754
@511,749 (Ks !KansasxqvM)
They don't actually think their sins are transferring to the chicken, mind. It's symbolic.
Ks !KansasxqvM replied with this 12 years ago, 9 minutes later, 2 days after the original post[^][v]#511,755
@previous (TTEH !JXsxEkDBLs)
In Christianity the sects all have different levels of belief, look at the ones who handle snakes for example. I'd be surprised if there isn't some Jewish sect that takes Kapparot very seriously. Maybe Mark can give us some better insight.
TTEH !JXsxEkDBLs replied with this 12 years ago, 1 minute later, 2 days after the original post[^][v]#511,756
@previous (Ks !KansasxqvM)
I suppose it's like the Eucharist; I've met Catholics who truly believe the wine becomes Christ's blood during the ritual.
Killer Lettuce !!iNo3FkiZx replied with this 12 years ago, 49 minutes later, 2 days after the original post[^][v]#511,759
@previous (TTEH !JXsxEkDBLs)
Where did you meet such people?
@511,752 (Ks !KansasxqvM)
They're not exactly inclined to listen out for conflicting evidence. And if they hear it, it can always be handwaved away if they're serious enough about their faith.
(Edited 10 minutes later.)
Ks !KansasxqvM replied with this 12 years ago, 7 minutes later, 2 days after the original post[^][v]#511,762
@previous (Killer Lettuce !!iNo3FkiZx)
They are comfortable with what they believe, and change is scary. Sometimes I think it'd be nice to believe an afterlife, but then I come to my senses and just enjoy the moment I have.
Anonymous R joined in and replied with this 12 years ago, 4 hours later, 2 days after the original post[^][v]#511,802
Holy bricks do exist.
Anonymous N replied with this 12 years ago, 51 minutes later, 2 days after the original post[^][v]#511,813
Kapparot is done on Yom Kippur. Another ancient Hebrew holiday is the Day of Atonement. And that's where the practice of the http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Scapegoat came from.
Humans often will gang up and blame some innocent person "scapegoating" for something. The Hebrews just made a word for it.
Killer Lettuce !!iNo3FkiZx replied with this 12 years ago, 3 minutes later, 2 days after the original post[^][v]#511,815
@511,802 (R)
Are they used to smite heretic windows?
@511,762 (Ks !KansasxqvM)
I find comfort in something Meta said on here, once. Basically, the thought was that we didn't mind not existing before, and we won't we don't exist again.
Anonymous N replied with this 12 years ago, 3 minutes later, 2 days after the original post[^][v]#511,816
> jews go back like 4 thousand years. this is exactly why i don't follow the suggestions of 2k year old goat herders.
Bear in mind both Jews and Christians follow The Torah (Old Testament). Christians also follow The Gospels (New Testament) written about 300AD and Jews also follow The Talmud written about 500AD. They're both essentially a split of the same religion. It isn't like Islam where they rewrote everything from scratch.
Ks !KansasxqvM replied with this 12 years ago, 25 minutes later, 2 days after the original post[^][v]#511,826
@511,813 (N) > The jews came up with scapegoating
Something something stereotypes
@511,815 (Killer Lettuce !!iNo3FkiZx)
Yeah I've read something like that before. Also something about the things we do while we're here can never be undone, good or bad, our actions will exist forever in this time and affect the future.
cupcake replied with this 12 years ago, 7 minutes later, 2 days after the original post[^][v]#511,830
...
(Edited 1 minute later.)
Anonymous N double-posted this 12 years ago, 1 minute later, 2 days after the original post[^][v]#511,831
> > The jews came up with scapegoating > Something something stereotypes
I never said those words. I said "Another ancient Hebrew holiday is the Day of Atonement. And that's where the practice of the http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Scapegoat came from." and "Humans often will gang up and blame some innocent person "scapegoating" for something. The Hebrews just made a word for it."
I basically just said the ancient Hebrews just made up a name for what humans do. I once saw a video of chimps doing the same thing.
Ks !KansasxqvM replied with this 12 years ago, 17 minutes later, 2 days after the original post[^][v]#511,842
@previous (N)
I was being facetious. That's very interesting that chimps would behave that way, animal intelligence is fascinating subject.