Topic: the villain is always more fascinating.
postmortem !!Qe8ScDbX+ started this discussion 12 years ago #36,178
I was talking to a friend about this. The villain in a story is almost invariably more fascinating than the hero. I think partly because a hero's motivations are clear, obvious, monotone. Whereas a villain has limitless motivations, it just can't be the hero's, they are abnormal, and therefore more intriguing. Harley Quinn and the Joker are more talked about characters than Batman. Biblically Delilah is a femme fatale, she's cunning, and manipulative. Samson is just some schmuck granted super human strength. Even the best protaganists are at least morally ambivalent or facile. Don Draper, Dexter Morgan, etc.
But it goes further than that, it holds true in real life. People know a lot more about Hitler than they do about Churchill. For example.
And it goes personal, look at Minichan. Havent heard from Harley in a while, nor have I seen any posts about her. Havent from toa4str or Kimmo Alm in probably years really except for maybe a few unverified accounts. Yet they are still discussed. Sometimes I do nice things for people, they are nice back, and everyone is happy. I know these stories are boring, so I tend not to post them, but if I do they get few replies, and are never mentioned again. Yet the Cheesecake factory incident is still brought up.
Tragedy is more interesting than good. Do you think the news reports mostly bad things because they want to scare us into submission or that only bad things are happening? No, good news is a niche market because as a whole us humans are way more intrigued and entertained by the bad than we are by the good.
Weird.
But it goes further than that, it holds true in real life. People know a lot more about Hitler than they do about Churchill. For example.
And it goes personal, look at Minichan. Havent heard from Harley in a while, nor have I seen any posts about her. Havent from toa4str or Kimmo Alm in probably years really except for maybe a few unverified accounts. Yet they are still discussed. Sometimes I do nice things for people, they are nice back, and everyone is happy. I know these stories are boring, so I tend not to post them, but if I do they get few replies, and are never mentioned again. Yet the Cheesecake factory incident is still brought up.
Tragedy is more interesting than good. Do you think the news reports mostly bad things because they want to scare us into submission or that only bad things are happening? No, good news is a niche market because as a whole us humans are way more intrigued and entertained by the bad than we are by the good.
Weird.
Anonymous B joined in and replied with this 12 years ago, 2 minutes later[^] [v] #494,796
squeegee joined in and replied with this 12 years ago, 41 minutes later, 44 minutes after the original post[^] [v] #494,838
villains are generally one-dimensional or flat-characters with stereotypical traits such as an inflated ego, a deceptive nature and a sense of entitlement. there are a handful of specific things that make a villain a villain, and they are always cliche because they always rely on the concept of "true evil." And that's a strawman. and it's dumb.
What is actually interesting are grey characters. People who are not inherently villains but who may do despicable things, or "bad people" who you come to see as being misunderstood. there is no true good or evil, and what actually mirrors life are characters who are always walking a fine line and sometimes falling to either side or the other. True "good guys" and true "bad guys" are easy to conceive and a safe way to design characters because the mediocre lap it up.
What is actually interesting are grey characters. People who are not inherently villains but who may do despicable things, or "bad people" who you come to see as being misunderstood. there is no true good or evil, and what actually mirrors life are characters who are always walking a fine line and sometimes falling to either side or the other. True "good guys" and true "bad guys" are easy to conceive and a safe way to design characters because the mediocre lap it up.
squeegee double-posted this 12 years ago, 2 minutes later, 47 minutes after the original post[^] [v] #494,839
and i'm not saying that stories about good vs. evil are bad, i'm just saying they aren't hard.
postmortem !!Qe8ScDbX+ (OP) replied with this 12 years ago, 30 minutes later, 1 hour after the original post[^] [v] #494,842
@494,838 (squeegee)
That's actually a really good point, and I agree. A stereoypical villain is as uninteresting as a stereotypical hero. Perhaps because grey characters are more relateable. We as people live in the grey area, we are dynamic. A misunderstood villain, a morally ambivalent hero is also unpredictable, sometimes erratic, the possibilities are endless, and the character is therefore more Intriguing. I still think that for the most part if a character is given the "misunderstood" or "grey" personality, they tend to be the villain. In film, for example the heros have a tendency to be unchallenging, and concerned with justice, someone to root for throughout. Whereas you go through a lot more ups and downs with the villain. There are some good exceptions, sure, but that's how it tends to go.
That's actually a really good point, and I agree. A stereoypical villain is as uninteresting as a stereotypical hero. Perhaps because grey characters are more relateable. We as people live in the grey area, we are dynamic. A misunderstood villain, a morally ambivalent hero is also unpredictable, sometimes erratic, the possibilities are endless, and the character is therefore more Intriguing. I still think that for the most part if a character is given the "misunderstood" or "grey" personality, they tend to be the villain. In film, for example the heros have a tendency to be unchallenging, and concerned with justice, someone to root for throughout. Whereas you go through a lot more ups and downs with the villain. There are some good exceptions, sure, but that's how it tends to go.
Anonymous B replied with this 12 years ago, 9 minutes later, 1 hour after the original post[^] [v] #494,844
squeegee replied with this 12 years ago, 10 minutes later, 1 hour after the original post[^] [v] #494,848
so here's an example of a story written completely with cliche flat characters
-----
Nathan Gale is a 29 year old research scientist at an uptight and prestigious ivy league university. His wife, Gloria, is a stay at home mother and a private dance instructor (she was a ballerina until the ankle shattering car wreck that ended her career.) They have a daughter, Selma, that they love dearly, but unfortunately childbirth caused damage to Gloria's uterus rendering her barren for the rest of her life. This has become a source of conflict for Nathan and Gloria, but they are working through it. Nathan desperately wants another child, and so does Gloria. Maybe adoption?
Then, one day, Harry, a new security cop began working at Nathan's school, and when Gloria popped in for her weekly lunch with Nathan in his office she got creeped out by her encounter with him. Nathan and Gloria dismiss the situation, and go on with their lives.
but strange things start happening. phone calls. Trash being messed with. unlocked gates.
Then at work Nathan notices his office has been broken into and he calls the Security Cops. Harry the security cop shows up and pokes fun at Nathan, and Nathan gets a bad feeling like maybe this was the guy who did it and that he is being messed with. Nathan is pretty smart, after all, what with being a research scientist and all.
So Nathan and Gloria get a security system and Nathan tries to find out more about Harry.
Suddenly, they worry about Selma who mentions meeting a "Harry man" or something. They Panic and call the real police, the cop cops, and they come by and can't find evidence of a crime. (oh no!)
Then, When Gloria is coming home from the Grocery store she's pulled over by a cop, she doesn't know why. It's dark out, and the when the cop comes up to the window he's all in black and a ski mask and tries to rape Gloria (oh my gosh) who barely gets away by hitting him with groceries and running onto the highway and into traffic.
The cop cops come by and Gloria explains her assault. The cops take her seriously, and finally do something by setting up 2 cops outside their house (how believable.) Nathan's research into Harry bears fruit, turns out Harry was a government spook with ties to Black Ops and stuff (courtesy of Nathan's old college roommate, Fernando, that works for the Dept. of Homeland Security) but that Harry had been discharged years before for [redacted] reasons. But the police can't pin it on Harry. They went to see him, and he was all charming and full of alibis. everything checked out. Harry was actually on stage performing as Stanley Kowalski in a small production of A Streetcar Named Desire when someone tried to rape Gloria.
How could this be? Has Nathan misjudged Harry? Perhaps he was just too hasty, maybe Harry didn't try to rape Gloria. Nathan and Harry become friends, but it's obvious to the reader that Harry is some what preoccupied with Nathan and Gloria. Perhaps in a creepy or at least disconcerting way. Then Nathan buys a handgun, his first handgun, but is uncomfortable about it. He shows Gloria, and they put it in a nightstand to "not think about it."
Even though the Night Raper has attacked and raped other women and it's all over the news, Harry still seems... off, to the reader, because of his intense interest and coy way of pretending Nathan and Gloria are more interested in him than he is interested in them. And then the reader see's the truth.
Harry has a shrine! (eek) it's a shrine of trash he's collected over the months, discarded things, old panties, stolen photos, a used condom, lingerie magazines and sexy photos with pictures of Nathan and Gloria on them. and then the bloody things... it's clear the obsession is... complete. and in the middle, a picture of Selma. Her being the product of the two that Harry Loves, he sees Selma as the ultimate expression of that and he wants to have her.
The Finale plays out when they all go on a friendly vacation, Nathan and Gloria still unaware of Harry's secret obsession.
But when it seems that everything is okay, Nathan realizes that the Night Raper is not active anymore, as if he's left town... like Harry.
Then Nathan finds Harry's suitcase Shrine (eek so creepy) he knows he has to kill him.
Then suddenly Harry hits Nathan with something and ties him up.
Then suddenly Nathan finds Harry standing over him along with... oh my god, it's Fernando.
Turns out Fernando and Harry have been in on it all along. Fernando has loved Gloris since he met her in college ballerina class all those years ago. But she never loved him back, and it infuriated him. All he ever wanted was Gloria. So then when he was in the Dept. of Homeland Security he became Harry's handler, and he did some crazy stuff to Harry, like programming stuff to make him his own personal killing and raping and creeping machine. He did it with Love, by making Harry love Fernando. And Harry was programmed to love Gloria. That's how the whole creep fest began. And Fernando has been going around raping women with Harry preparing for this whole staged affair, they are going to Rape Nathan and Gloria, and then kill them and then Fernando wants to kill Selma.
But... Harry loves... Selma. So right before Fernando knifes Nathan to death, Harry starts to beat him up and screaming about not hurting Selma. Harry kills Fernando when he falls on his own knife. Nathan and Harry are looking at each other when suddenly Harry is shot in the head.
It's Gloria!@
She's somehow managed to get the gun Nathan had bought and i guess brought on vacation and pop in and shoot Harry just right afterwards!
It's over, and Nathan and Gloria console each other. Nathan struggles to explain what happened, Gloria was shocked to see Fernando there, was it all over? Was this the end? Can they get on with their lives or will they forever live in fear and never trust other people again? Then they look at Selma, and see themselves reflected in her eyes, and they know that 'yes', one day they will... but not right now, they agree.
-----
now you'd just go back and flesh out the scenes, add some dialog and some introspection and you're done.
-----
Nathan Gale is a 29 year old research scientist at an uptight and prestigious ivy league university. His wife, Gloria, is a stay at home mother and a private dance instructor (she was a ballerina until the ankle shattering car wreck that ended her career.) They have a daughter, Selma, that they love dearly, but unfortunately childbirth caused damage to Gloria's uterus rendering her barren for the rest of her life. This has become a source of conflict for Nathan and Gloria, but they are working through it. Nathan desperately wants another child, and so does Gloria. Maybe adoption?
Then, one day, Harry, a new security cop began working at Nathan's school, and when Gloria popped in for her weekly lunch with Nathan in his office she got creeped out by her encounter with him. Nathan and Gloria dismiss the situation, and go on with their lives.
but strange things start happening. phone calls. Trash being messed with. unlocked gates.
Then at work Nathan notices his office has been broken into and he calls the Security Cops. Harry the security cop shows up and pokes fun at Nathan, and Nathan gets a bad feeling like maybe this was the guy who did it and that he is being messed with. Nathan is pretty smart, after all, what with being a research scientist and all.
So Nathan and Gloria get a security system and Nathan tries to find out more about Harry.
Suddenly, they worry about Selma who mentions meeting a "Harry man" or something. They Panic and call the real police, the cop cops, and they come by and can't find evidence of a crime. (oh no!)
Then, When Gloria is coming home from the Grocery store she's pulled over by a cop, she doesn't know why. It's dark out, and the when the cop comes up to the window he's all in black and a ski mask and tries to rape Gloria (oh my gosh) who barely gets away by hitting him with groceries and running onto the highway and into traffic.
The cop cops come by and Gloria explains her assault. The cops take her seriously, and finally do something by setting up 2 cops outside their house (how believable.) Nathan's research into Harry bears fruit, turns out Harry was a government spook with ties to Black Ops and stuff (courtesy of Nathan's old college roommate, Fernando, that works for the Dept. of Homeland Security) but that Harry had been discharged years before for [redacted] reasons. But the police can't pin it on Harry. They went to see him, and he was all charming and full of alibis. everything checked out. Harry was actually on stage performing as Stanley Kowalski in a small production of A Streetcar Named Desire when someone tried to rape Gloria.
How could this be? Has Nathan misjudged Harry? Perhaps he was just too hasty, maybe Harry didn't try to rape Gloria. Nathan and Harry become friends, but it's obvious to the reader that Harry is some what preoccupied with Nathan and Gloria. Perhaps in a creepy or at least disconcerting way. Then Nathan buys a handgun, his first handgun, but is uncomfortable about it. He shows Gloria, and they put it in a nightstand to "not think about it."
Even though the Night Raper has attacked and raped other women and it's all over the news, Harry still seems... off, to the reader, because of his intense interest and coy way of pretending Nathan and Gloria are more interested in him than he is interested in them. And then the reader see's the truth.
Harry has a shrine! (eek) it's a shrine of trash he's collected over the months, discarded things, old panties, stolen photos, a used condom, lingerie magazines and sexy photos with pictures of Nathan and Gloria on them. and then the bloody things... it's clear the obsession is... complete. and in the middle, a picture of Selma. Her being the product of the two that Harry Loves, he sees Selma as the ultimate expression of that and he wants to have her.
The Finale plays out when they all go on a friendly vacation, Nathan and Gloria still unaware of Harry's secret obsession.
But when it seems that everything is okay, Nathan realizes that the Night Raper is not active anymore, as if he's left town... like Harry.
Then Nathan finds Harry's suitcase Shrine (eek so creepy) he knows he has to kill him.
Then suddenly Harry hits Nathan with something and ties him up.
Then suddenly Nathan finds Harry standing over him along with... oh my god, it's Fernando.
Turns out Fernando and Harry have been in on it all along. Fernando has loved Gloris since he met her in college ballerina class all those years ago. But she never loved him back, and it infuriated him. All he ever wanted was Gloria. So then when he was in the Dept. of Homeland Security he became Harry's handler, and he did some crazy stuff to Harry, like programming stuff to make him his own personal killing and raping and creeping machine. He did it with Love, by making Harry love Fernando. And Harry was programmed to love Gloria. That's how the whole creep fest began. And Fernando has been going around raping women with Harry preparing for this whole staged affair, they are going to Rape Nathan and Gloria, and then kill them and then Fernando wants to kill Selma.
But... Harry loves... Selma. So right before Fernando knifes Nathan to death, Harry starts to beat him up and screaming about not hurting Selma. Harry kills Fernando when he falls on his own knife. Nathan and Harry are looking at each other when suddenly Harry is shot in the head.
It's Gloria!@
She's somehow managed to get the gun Nathan had bought and i guess brought on vacation and pop in and shoot Harry just right afterwards!
It's over, and Nathan and Gloria console each other. Nathan struggles to explain what happened, Gloria was shocked to see Fernando there, was it all over? Was this the end? Can they get on with their lives or will they forever live in fear and never trust other people again? Then they look at Selma, and see themselves reflected in her eyes, and they know that 'yes', one day they will... but not right now, they agree.
-----
now you'd just go back and flesh out the scenes, add some dialog and some introspection and you're done.
(Edited 5 minutes later.)
Anonymous D joined in and replied with this 12 years ago, 35 minutes later, 2 hours after the original post[^] [v] #494,854
Anonymous E joined in and replied with this 12 years ago, 4 hours later, 6 hours after the original post[^] [v] #494,879
No
Anonymous F joined in and replied with this 12 years ago, 1 hour later, 7 hours after the original post[^] [v] #494,885
@OP your life is a tragedy please kill yourself
squeegee replied with this 12 years ago, 2 hours later, 10 hours after the original post[^] [v] #494,893
@494,842 (postmortem !!Qe8ScDbX+)
well, a lot of times you get grey hero's. there's the whole theme of the anti-hero. a beloved scoundrel. that sort of thing.
but often times the antagonists are solid black. They have few if any redeemable qualities and that lets them be a foil for a more ambiguous hero.
An ambiguous, or grey antagonist would likely make your hero look like a dick for defeating him unless he's pure good. But then the hero would likely come across as preachy. So a grey antagonist would be one that the reader can't clearly place into a category of good or bad, so when they are defeated the reader would feel conflicted. should they feel good about it? he wasn't such a bad guy, afterall.
maybe the reader doesn't actually like the hero because the hero can't see the villain for who he is, a flawed human being who sometimes makes mistakes. a grey character has enough good qualities in them to form a bond with them, which is how the reader would view a grey antihero. probably that would end up making the "good guy" appear to be the bad guy.
that would probably alienate your readers very quickly, and that's probably why we don't see many "anti-villains."
GRRM does a great job of writing mostly ambiguous characters in A Song of Ice and Fire (Game of Thrones.) Good, bad. everyone is the same.
except for joffrey. that kid was nothing but evil.
so even in a story with many, many ambiguous characters you still need that dark foil.
well, a lot of times you get grey hero's. there's the whole theme of the anti-hero. a beloved scoundrel. that sort of thing.
but often times the antagonists are solid black. They have few if any redeemable qualities and that lets them be a foil for a more ambiguous hero.
An ambiguous, or grey antagonist would likely make your hero look like a dick for defeating him unless he's pure good. But then the hero would likely come across as preachy. So a grey antagonist would be one that the reader can't clearly place into a category of good or bad, so when they are defeated the reader would feel conflicted. should they feel good about it? he wasn't such a bad guy, afterall.
maybe the reader doesn't actually like the hero because the hero can't see the villain for who he is, a flawed human being who sometimes makes mistakes. a grey character has enough good qualities in them to form a bond with them, which is how the reader would view a grey antihero. probably that would end up making the "good guy" appear to be the bad guy.
that would probably alienate your readers very quickly, and that's probably why we don't see many "anti-villains."
GRRM does a great job of writing mostly ambiguous characters in A Song of Ice and Fire (Game of Thrones.) Good, bad. everyone is the same.
except for joffrey. that kid was nothing but evil.
so even in a story with many, many ambiguous characters you still need that dark foil.
(Edited 3 minutes later.)