Topic: "I think all cis women should be raped" - Decibelmilliwattz
HaikerensGuide !dBGi/iH4eY started this discussion 12 years ago #36,133
Is this the new you that you wish to showcase to the world?
swamplights !!0lQNsDoq/ joined in and replied with this 12 years ago, 2 hours later[^] [v] #494,389
Good point. I hope that he responds. Oh and like two weeks ago he said that he was person of color to try and win an argument, and then
admitted he was white around four days ago.
admitted he was white around four days ago.
Killer Lettuce !!iNo3FkiZx joined in and replied with this 12 years ago, 16 minutes later, 3 hours after the original post[^] [v] #494,390
Meta said that that was an impersonator.Anonymous D joined in and replied with this 12 years ago, 14 minutes later, 3 hours after the original post[^] [v] #494,392
What the fuck? Do point me to where this impersonation was happening, because... what kind of fucking waste of oxygen would advocate for the rape of any woman!?
@494,389 (swamplights !!0lQNsDoq/)
I never did, though. IIRC, I was merely discussing the racism inherent to TERF ideology, and if I came across as implying myself to be anything but white, I must've fucked up how I conveyed my argument hard. x_x;
@494,389 (swamplights !!0lQNsDoq/)
I never did, though. IIRC, I was merely discussing the racism inherent to TERF ideology, and if I came across as implying myself to be anything but white, I must've fucked up how I conveyed my argument hard. x_x;
decibelmilliwatts !!beW+FQoWB double-posted this 12 years ago, 3 minutes later, 3 hours after the original post[^] [v] #494,395
Disregard request for a link. I saw, and I'm gagging IRL.
Metæ joined in and replied with this 12 years ago, 17 minutes later, 3 hours after the original post[^] [v] #494,401
@494,392 (D)
How is TERF-ism racist? I can see arguing it's transphobic, but racist?
@OP
Don't be fooled by illegal clones.
How is TERF-ism racist? I can see arguing it's transphobic, but racist?
@OP
Don't be fooled by illegal clones.
(Edited 48 seconds later.)
decibelmilliwatts !!beW+FQoWB replied with this 12 years ago, 1 minute later, 3 hours after the original post[^] [v] #494,402
@previous (Metæ)
Deliberately erasing and "debating" the identities of people in cultures which lack a strict gender binary.
Deliberately erasing and "debating" the identities of people in cultures which lack a strict gender binary.
Metæ replied with this 12 years ago, 4 minutes later, 3 hours after the original post[^] [v] #494,403
@previous (decibelmilliwatts !!beW+FQoWB)
Yeah but that's gender, not race. The two are quite separate and unrelated, no?
And if a TERF lives in a culture with a clear gender binary isn't trying to force another culture's views on gender erasing their culture?
Also isn't assuming all People of Color--ed-- have a non-binary view of gender in itself just a bit racist?
Yeah but that's gender, not race. The two are quite separate and unrelated, no?
And if a TERF lives in a culture with a clear gender binary isn't trying to force another culture's views on gender erasing their culture?
Also isn't assuming all People of Color--ed-- have a non-binary view of gender in itself just a bit racist?
(Edited 2 minutes later.)
decibelmilliwatts !!beW+FQoWB replied with this 12 years ago, 25 minutes later, 4 hours after the original post[^] [v] #494,404
@previous (Metæ)
1. It's along racial lines. Almost invariably white* TERFs dictating that nonbinary genders are invalid and need to be "gotten rid of" to nonbinary people, who are disproportionately** PoC.
2. It's their act of imposition ("your gender is invalid!") which is the oppressive part. I've never heard of any nonbinary people anywhere disputing the validity of any binary person's gender.
3. That's not the assumption here, though! Most cultures have some sort of binary gender system (though active hostility to identification outside that isn't as common), but the point I'm making is that there are a lot of cultures which aren't made up of white people which do have relatively accepted, recognised nonbinary genders, and it's racist for white people to come along and insist that these specific cultures, and the people within them, are "wrong" about their genders.
4. "Colored" is extremely different in its context from people of colo(u)r, from what I know.
*I've never seen any WoC throwing around TERF ideology anywhere. Transphobia, sometimes, but not specifically the TERF variety.
**This is somewhat conjecture from my not nearly comprehensive knowledge of other cultures and personal observation; I do not have statistics to back it up ATM.
1. It's along racial lines. Almost invariably white* TERFs dictating that nonbinary genders are invalid and need to be "gotten rid of" to nonbinary people, who are disproportionately** PoC.
2. It's their act of imposition ("your gender is invalid!") which is the oppressive part. I've never heard of any nonbinary people anywhere disputing the validity of any binary person's gender.
3. That's not the assumption here, though! Most cultures have some sort of binary gender system (though active hostility to identification outside that isn't as common), but the point I'm making is that there are a lot of cultures which aren't made up of white people which do have relatively accepted, recognised nonbinary genders, and it's racist for white people to come along and insist that these specific cultures, and the people within them, are "wrong" about their genders.
4. "Colored" is extremely different in its context from people of colo(u)r, from what I know.
*I've never seen any WoC throwing around TERF ideology anywhere. Transphobia, sometimes, but not specifically the TERF variety.
**This is somewhat conjecture from my not nearly comprehensive knowledge of other cultures and personal observation; I do not have statistics to back it up ATM.
(Edited 2 minutes later.)
Anonymous F joined in and replied with this 12 years ago, 1 minute later, 4 hours after the original post[^] [v] #494,405
I guess trans-women are safe from his wrath.
decibelmilliwatts !!beW+FQoWB replied with this 12 years ago, 1 minute later, 4 hours after the original post[^] [v] #494,406
@previous (F)
It was impersonation, though. :\ This has been gone over multiple times -- shockingly enough to some, that was impersonation.
It was impersonation, though. :\ This has been gone over multiple times -- shockingly enough to some, that was impersonation.
Anonymous G joined in and replied with this 12 years ago, 1 hour later, 5 hours after the original post[^] [v] #494,410
@494,404 (decibelmilliwatts !!beW+FQoWB)
You're naive. There are plenty of historical examples of whites without hard gender binaries. Try developing arguments from research and not feelings you've circlejerked about on the internet.
You're naive. There are plenty of historical examples of whites without hard gender binaries. Try developing arguments from research and not feelings you've circlejerked about on the internet.
HaikerensGuide !dBGi/iH4eY (OP) replied with this 12 years ago, 2 minutes later, 5 hours after the original post[^] [v] #494,411
decibelmilliwatts !!beW+FQoWB replied with this 12 years ago, 10 minutes later, 5 hours after the original post[^] [v] #494,412
Metæ replied with this 12 years ago, 28 minutes later, 6 hours after the original post[^] [v] #494,420
@494,404 (decibelmilliwatts !!beW+FQoWB)
> 1. It's along racial lines. Almost invariably white* TERFs dictating that nonbinary genders are invalid and need to be "gotten rid of" to nonbinary people, who are disproportionately** PoC.
Source for the latter half of that statement? It's kind of racist to assume most trans* people are people of color--ed--
> 2. It's their act of imposition ("your gender is invalid!") which is the oppressive part. I've never heard of any nonbinary people anywhere disputing the validity of any binary person's gender.
That's absolutely oppressive, but saying "your gender is invalid" has nothing to do with race. Also you haven't seen all the anti-cis stuff on Tumblr, have you?
> 3. That's not the assumption here, though! Most cultures have some sort of binary gender system (though active hostility to identification outside that isn't as common), but the point I'm making is that there are a lot of cultures which aren't made up of white people which do have relatively accepted, recognised nonbinary genders, and it's racist for white people to come along and insist that these specific cultures, and the people within them, are "wrong" about their genders.
But some of those cultures are "white". You're completely ignoring the majority of young "white" people who are accepting of LGBTQ people. Culture isn't some monolitic bloc that everyone marches in lockstep to, like the borg. People, even in the same culture have different opinions, and the zeitgeist of any culture evolves over time. You and Kook are both "white", does that mean you're both transphobes or that you both share the same culture?
> 4. "Colored" is extremely different in its context from people of colo(u)r, from what I know.
Yes, that's why I struck out the "-ed", to highlight the fact that while the Jim Crow paradigm arbitrarily divided society into "white" and "colored", the new "White/PoC" divides the world into "white" and "nonwhite" which is... ah fuck it, nevermind.
> *I've never seen any WoC throwing around TERF ideology anywhere. Transphobia, sometimes, but not specifically the TERF variety.
But is transphobia better when it's not TERF-ed?
> 1. It's along racial lines. Almost invariably white* TERFs dictating that nonbinary genders are invalid and need to be "gotten rid of" to nonbinary people, who are disproportionately** PoC.
Source for the latter half of that statement? It's kind of racist to assume most trans* people are people of color--ed--
> 2. It's their act of imposition ("your gender is invalid!") which is the oppressive part. I've never heard of any nonbinary people anywhere disputing the validity of any binary person's gender.
That's absolutely oppressive, but saying "your gender is invalid" has nothing to do with race. Also you haven't seen all the anti-cis stuff on Tumblr, have you?
> 3. That's not the assumption here, though! Most cultures have some sort of binary gender system (though active hostility to identification outside that isn't as common), but the point I'm making is that there are a lot of cultures which aren't made up of white people which do have relatively accepted, recognised nonbinary genders, and it's racist for white people to come along and insist that these specific cultures, and the people within them, are "wrong" about their genders.
But some of those cultures are "white". You're completely ignoring the majority of young "white" people who are accepting of LGBTQ people. Culture isn't some monolitic bloc that everyone marches in lockstep to, like the borg. People, even in the same culture have different opinions, and the zeitgeist of any culture evolves over time. You and Kook are both "white", does that mean you're both transphobes or that you both share the same culture?
> 4. "Colored" is extremely different in its context from people of colo(u)r, from what I know.
Yes, that's why I struck out the "-ed", to highlight the fact that while the Jim Crow paradigm arbitrarily divided society into "white" and "colored", the new "White/PoC" divides the world into "white" and "nonwhite" which is... ah fuck it, nevermind.
> *I've never seen any WoC throwing around TERF ideology anywhere. Transphobia, sometimes, but not specifically the TERF variety.
But is transphobia better when it's not TERF-ed?
Anonymous H joined in and replied with this 12 years ago, 5 minutes later, 6 hours after the original post[^] [v] #494,422
@previous (Metæ)
Calling people "white" is racist. I see you were going to "go there" but decided not to.
Let's have this discussion.
Calling people "white" is racist. I see you were going to "go there" but decided not to.
Let's have this discussion.
Metæ replied with this 12 years ago, 1 minute later, 6 hours after the original post[^] [v] #494,423
decibelmilliwatts !!beW+FQoWB replied with this 12 years ago, 13 minutes later, 6 hours after the original post[^] [v] #494,427
@494,420 (Metæ)
1. That's not what I said, though.
2. Well, it's, in one way, another example of "white makes right". "Hey, us enlightened Europeans are so much more enlightened than you that we can call your identities outright invalid" is the message being sent.
3. I'm not erasing white queer people or white cishet people who aren't shit about queer issues, though. I'm just pointing out that groups are relevant here, and that Western culture tends to be hostile to all forms of queerness to varying degrees on a systemic level.
To answer this question adequately, though, is Kook from a white-dominated colonial country outside of Europe, a non-colonised country outside of Europe, or Europe itself? This is actually extremely relevant to the dynamics at hand.
4. I can see exactly what you're getting at, and the intent of the people introducing the line of discourse is entirely relevant. Jim Crow "white"/"colored" was an attempt to segregate Black people; contemporary anti-racist white and PoC is a simple classification made to draw a line, for the purposes of analysis, between people who are oppressed by racism and people who aren't.
5. No, not really — it's just an observation that this bigotry is codified in multiple vaguely different ideologies which modify how it's conveyed.
1. That's not what I said, though.
2. Well, it's, in one way, another example of "white makes right". "Hey, us enlightened Europeans are so much more enlightened than you that we can call your identities outright invalid" is the message being sent.
3. I'm not erasing white queer people or white cishet people who aren't shit about queer issues, though. I'm just pointing out that groups are relevant here, and that Western culture tends to be hostile to all forms of queerness to varying degrees on a systemic level.
To answer this question adequately, though, is Kook from a white-dominated colonial country outside of Europe, a non-colonised country outside of Europe, or Europe itself? This is actually extremely relevant to the dynamics at hand.
4. I can see exactly what you're getting at, and the intent of the people introducing the line of discourse is entirely relevant. Jim Crow "white"/"colored" was an attempt to segregate Black people; contemporary anti-racist white and PoC is a simple classification made to draw a line, for the purposes of analysis, between people who are oppressed by racism and people who aren't.
5. No, not really — it's just an observation that this bigotry is codified in multiple vaguely different ideologies which modify how it's conveyed.
Anonymous H replied with this 12 years ago, 7 minutes later, 6 hours after the original post[^] [v] #494,428
@494,423 (Metæ)
When you call me 'white' you may as well be calling me a honkaloid.
It's just as painful.
When you call me 'white' you may as well be calling me a honkaloid.
It's just as painful.
Metæ replied with this 12 years ago, 5 minutes later, 7 hours after the original post[^] [v] #494,429
Anonymous H replied with this 12 years ago, 6 minutes later, 7 hours after the original post[^] [v] #494,430
Metæ replied with this 12 years ago, 21 minutes later, 7 hours after the original post[^] [v] #494,431
@494,427 (decibelmilliwatts !!beW+FQoWB)
> 1. That's not what I said, though.
Okay then source for nonbinary people are disproportionately "PoC"
> 2. Well, it's, in one way, another example of "white makes right". "Hey, us enlightened Europeans are so much more enlightened than you that we can call your identities outright invalid" is the message being sent.
Who is "us Europeans?" Again, you're erasing large swathes of "white" people who accept and embrace LGBTQ and assuming all "white" people are bigoted, which is, again, racist.
> 3. I'm not erasing white queer people or white cishet people who aren't shit about queer issues, though. I'm just pointing out that groups are relevant here, and that Western culture tends to be hostile to all forms of queerness to varying degrees on a systemic level.
Non-Western cultures run the gamut from death penalty to near-total acceptance for being queer, just like Western ones. Not every European country, or even every state in America is the same. You can't paint with such broad strokes.
> To answer this question adequately, though, is Kook from a white-dominated colonial country outside of Europe, a non-colonised country outside of Europe, or Europe itself? This is actually extremely relevant to the dynamics at hand.
America can be either the first or second, depending how you interpret "colonial". But why does it matter, all "whites" think the same, right?
> 4. I can see exactly what you're getting at, and the intent of the people introducing the line of discourse is entirely relevant. Jim Crow "white"/"colored" was an attempt to segregate Black people; contemporary anti-racist white and PoC is a simple classification made to draw a line, for the purposes of analysis, between people who are oppressed by racism and people who aren't.
Again, it's an inflexible binary worldview (ironic, for someone who rails against binaries so much) for a situation which needs more nuance.
> 5. No, not really — it's just an observation that this bigotry is codified in multiple vaguely different ideologies which modify how it's conveyed.
But, to a trans person, does it matter if the transphobe is also a radfem?
> 1. That's not what I said, though.
Okay then source for nonbinary people are disproportionately "PoC"
> 2. Well, it's, in one way, another example of "white makes right". "Hey, us enlightened Europeans are so much more enlightened than you that we can call your identities outright invalid" is the message being sent.
Who is "us Europeans?" Again, you're erasing large swathes of "white" people who accept and embrace LGBTQ and assuming all "white" people are bigoted, which is, again, racist.
> 3. I'm not erasing white queer people or white cishet people who aren't shit about queer issues, though. I'm just pointing out that groups are relevant here, and that Western culture tends to be hostile to all forms of queerness to varying degrees on a systemic level.
Non-Western cultures run the gamut from death penalty to near-total acceptance for being queer, just like Western ones. Not every European country, or even every state in America is the same. You can't paint with such broad strokes.
> To answer this question adequately, though, is Kook from a white-dominated colonial country outside of Europe, a non-colonised country outside of Europe, or Europe itself? This is actually extremely relevant to the dynamics at hand.
America can be either the first or second, depending how you interpret "colonial". But why does it matter, all "whites" think the same, right?
> 4. I can see exactly what you're getting at, and the intent of the people introducing the line of discourse is entirely relevant. Jim Crow "white"/"colored" was an attempt to segregate Black people; contemporary anti-racist white and PoC is a simple classification made to draw a line, for the purposes of analysis, between people who are oppressed by racism and people who aren't.
Again, it's an inflexible binary worldview (ironic, for someone who rails against binaries so much) for a situation which needs more nuance.
> 5. No, not really — it's just an observation that this bigotry is codified in multiple vaguely different ideologies which modify how it's conveyed.
But, to a trans person, does it matter if the transphobe is also a radfem?
(Edited 1 minute later.)
Metæ double-posted this 12 years ago, 1 minute later, 7 hours after the original post[^] [v] #494,432
decibelmilliwatts !!beW+FQoWB replied with this 12 years ago, 8 minutes later, 7 hours after the original post[^] [v] #494,433
@494,431 (Metæ)
1. As I admitted in my first post, I have no solid single source. It's extrapolation from observation and limited research.
2. In that case, I'm talking specifically about white people who implicitly argue Western culture to have some sort of objective superiority over, say, various Indian or Native American/First Nations cultures via, in this case, their attitude that they can claim objectivity over the identities of others along heavily race-correlated lines.
3. I was merely pointing out a tendency, though, while making it clear to be a mere tendency — it's a strong enough tendency that heteronormativity, cisnormativity, and binarism are extremely deeply ingrained in our cultural and legal institutions, though.
4. I never said that race dynamics were literally exactly that simple, though. See: anti-blackness amongst a fair number of NBPoC, differing definitions of whiteness between various European countries and their resultant colonies, Jewishness and Irishness being, until less than a century ago, disqualifiers from whiteness, etcetera. None of these terms are made to be immaculately perfect without use of other terms to clarify them and their context.
5. From what I've seen, it's a mixed bag, varying based on numerous factors.
1. As I admitted in my first post, I have no solid single source. It's extrapolation from observation and limited research.
2. In that case, I'm talking specifically about white people who implicitly argue Western culture to have some sort of objective superiority over, say, various Indian or Native American/First Nations cultures via, in this case, their attitude that they can claim objectivity over the identities of others along heavily race-correlated lines.
3. I was merely pointing out a tendency, though, while making it clear to be a mere tendency — it's a strong enough tendency that heteronormativity, cisnormativity, and binarism are extremely deeply ingrained in our cultural and legal institutions, though.
4. I never said that race dynamics were literally exactly that simple, though. See: anti-blackness amongst a fair number of NBPoC, differing definitions of whiteness between various European countries and their resultant colonies, Jewishness and Irishness being, until less than a century ago, disqualifiers from whiteness, etcetera. None of these terms are made to be immaculately perfect without use of other terms to clarify them and their context.
5. From what I've seen, it's a mixed bag, varying based on numerous factors.
TTEH !JXsxEkDBLs joined in and replied with this 12 years ago, 6 minutes later, 7 hours after the original post[^] [v] #494,436
lol
kook !!32zdfdzi+ joined in and replied with this 12 years ago, 42 minutes later, 8 hours after the original post[^] [v] #494,439
Anonymous K joined in and replied with this 12 years ago, 7 hours later, 15 hours after the original post[^] [v] #494,452
Anonymous L joined in and replied with this 12 years ago, 1 day later, 2 days after the original post[^] [v] #494,674
decibelmilliwatts is a faggot and wrong and walter is a faggot and wrong
thanks
thanks