Topic: How might the Internet play a factor in a third world war?
Anonymous A started this discussion 12 years ago #35,634
Should we expect many government regulations during a time of global warfare?
How might everyday citizens of the world factor in knowing their voices will be heard via Internet?
Can we expect numerous cyber-attacks from other world governments such as China?
Reminder, should a third world war occur, it'll be the first one to have such an invention that spans the entire planet.
How might everyday citizens of the world factor in knowing their voices will be heard via Internet?
Can we expect numerous cyber-attacks from other world governments such as China?
Reminder, should a third world war occur, it'll be the first one to have such an invention that spans the entire planet.
Anonymous B joined in and replied with this 12 years ago, 1 hour later[^] [v] #489,009
Carefully planned, the internet world wide can be disconnected. USA to Eu its just cables to cut under the ocean. England is even easier to cut off.Only limited space based delivery is an option and China has already demonstrated, how easy it is to destroy satellites.
> Third world war?
Internet will be the 1st thing to go.
Neighbor to neighbor? This works for distances over 1000 Feet.
Anonymous C joined in and replied with this 12 years ago, 1 hour later, 2 hours after the original post[^] [v] #489,012
lol catherine
Anonymous A (OP) replied with this 12 years ago, 1 minute later, 2 hours after the original post[^] [v] #489,013
@489,009 (B)
Didn't the UN declare the Internet a human right?
If the Internet just up and vanished then there will surely be unrest within countries.
Didn't the UN declare the Internet a human right?
If the Internet just up and vanished then there will surely be unrest within countries.
Anonymous C replied with this 12 years ago, 45 seconds later, 2 hours after the original post[^] [v] #489,014
Anonymous D joined in and replied with this 12 years ago, 1 hour later, 4 hours after the original post[^] [v] #489,015
@489,013 (A)
The only unrest that would happen if the world killed the internet, is a bunch of teenagers flipping the fuck out because they can't update their Facebook.
The only unrest that would happen if the world killed the internet, is a bunch of teenagers flipping the fuck out because they can't update their Facebook.
squeegee joined in and replied with this 12 years ago, 4 hours later, 8 hours after the original post[^] [v] #489,029
@previous (D)
actually this is wrong. businesses all now rely on the internet to do work. if the internet crashes, so will our economy.
it would likely recover, but there would be severe and immediate rammifications.
also in ww3 the internet would die in the first few days. if nuclear is used or newer classes of EMP style cruise missiles are used then it would be dead like real quick.
we'd probably build up ad hoc networks or rely on emp shielded satellite communication, but even china has the capability to shoot down satellites.
but the great thing about ww3 will be the civilian involvement.
actually this is wrong. businesses all now rely on the internet to do work. if the internet crashes, so will our economy.
it would likely recover, but there would be severe and immediate rammifications.
also in ww3 the internet would die in the first few days. if nuclear is used or newer classes of EMP style cruise missiles are used then it would be dead like real quick.
we'd probably build up ad hoc networks or rely on emp shielded satellite communication, but even china has the capability to shoot down satellites.
but the great thing about ww3 will be the civilian involvement.
Anonymous D replied with this 12 years ago, 43 minutes later, 9 hours after the original post[^] [v] #489,030
Anon B with the help of Syntax replied with this 12 years ago, 35 seconds later, 9 hours after the original post[^] [v] #489,031
@489,013 (A)
> Didn't the UN declare the Internet a human right?
LOL
@489,029 (squeegee)
> if nuclear is used or newer classes of EMP style cruise missiles are used then it would be dead like real quick.
I have no expertise on cruise missiles (only Minuteman & limited to one ultra unique important very very important technical item) and of course anything Hughes developed
or er French Exocet. I doubt sub launched cruise missiles need be EMP IF the Subs are submerged - deeply.
> emp shielded satellite
All Satellites and I mean ALL, are designed and built with Radiation harden parts. Sun & Cosmetic daily events require this. Of course no heavy shielding is possible up in space.
So YES if anyone sends up in space nukes designed for enhanced EMP, that wood take out our Satellites as well as THEIRS
As an aside. The need for Rad Hard parts also means the parts in Satellites are on the low tech side. Generally slow CPU's using fewer transistors and of older technology. Small traces inside, are subject to growing fungi like metallic particles. Gold that does not oxidize on Earth ...does develop Purple Plague (Purple Crystals that build up like towers and collapse, shorting out adjacent transistors.
A world of hurt from current radiation keeps my wallet from being empty.
> Didn't the UN declare the Internet a human right?
LOL
@489,029 (squeegee)
> if nuclear is used or newer classes of EMP style cruise missiles are used then it would be dead like real quick.
I have no expertise on cruise missiles (only Minuteman & limited to one ultra unique important very very important technical item) and of course anything Hughes developed
or er French Exocet. I doubt sub launched cruise missiles need be EMP IF the Subs are submerged - deeply.
> emp shielded satellite
All Satellites and I mean ALL, are designed and built with Radiation harden parts. Sun & Cosmetic daily events require this. Of course no heavy shielding is possible up in space.
So YES if anyone sends up in space nukes designed for enhanced EMP, that wood take out our Satellites as well as THEIRS
As an aside. The need for Rad Hard parts also means the parts in Satellites are on the low tech side. Generally slow CPU's using fewer transistors and of older technology. Small traces inside, are subject to growing fungi like metallic particles. Gold that does not oxidize on Earth ...does develop Purple Plague (Purple Crystals that build up like towers and collapse, shorting out adjacent transistors.
A world of hurt from current radiation keeps my wallet from being empty.
Anonymous F joined in and replied with this 12 years ago, 1 hour later, 11 hours after the original post[^] [v] #489,048
@489,009 (B)they can be disconnected, but they can keep a network operating within their country. Also they could reconnect through another link if they so desired. Looking at the attached image the USA is actually the easiest country to cut off. They are only linked with the EU and Japan, wherasa the EU is heavily interconnected and links to the rest of the world. Sure the US has most of the companies controlling distribution of ips, dns, and CAs, but all of that is political and can be changed.
@489,013 (A)
the internet can't just "disappear". Some parts can be disabled, like the DNS structure, but everything can be reconstructed on a per-country level if necessary, to create a bunch of seperate networks.
(Edited 1 minute later.)
Metæ joined in and replied with this 12 years ago, 10 minutes later, 11 hours after the original post[^] [v] #489,051
Battles will be fought by slacktivism and whoever can reblog the most posts. Medals of honor will be awarded for soldiers who make particularly compelling hashtags. America and Russia will "go nuclear" and file DMCA takedown notices on each others YouTube videos.
Syntax replied with this 12 years ago, 50 minutes later, 12 hours after the original post[^] [v] #489,066
@489,048 (F)
I understand your argument. And cutting cables - If one side does that the other side does it to them and repair is a byyyyytch. Massive fiber optic bundles patch up not so much so good.
If it were me? 1st if you look at a map/architecture of say USA, with a huge number of ISP. Cable - Cell phone - Telco Verizon AT&T - on 1st glance it looks near impossible to impact such a huge map.
Now look for a map of 1st tier Head end Internet companies - Only 7 ...got that just a simple 7. That is WORLD Wide. So your ISP ends up at a Tier 1 b4 you get anywhere. Take out that Tier 1 and of course Cisco routers will re-route to one of the other Head end Tier 1's but remember only 7.
But its even easier then that. For instance recently Egypt decided to cut off all internet access. Instead of any physical damage they simply entered 9 Unix instructions to the Border Gateway Protocol. Takes a Syops Super User aka Snowden type, who with 9 separate typed commands, can kill route transfers at 100% of the Cisco or competitive routers.
Type 7 more Unix commands to then define, who can route so that the Egypt n Military Gov can use the system intact.
Which is why for instance the USA Nukes underground are hard wired on a secure not Net connect (designed b4 net invented) and yes its cables buried deep which does worry Gov as seen recently on 60 Minutes.
Critiques argue all Nukes should be Submarine Nukes.
I understand your argument. And cutting cables - If one side does that the other side does it to them and repair is a byyyyytch. Massive fiber optic bundles patch up not so much so good.
If it were me? 1st if you look at a map/architecture of say USA, with a huge number of ISP. Cable - Cell phone - Telco Verizon AT&T - on 1st glance it looks near impossible to impact such a huge map.
Now look for a map of 1st tier Head end Internet companies - Only 7 ...got that just a simple 7. That is WORLD Wide. So your ISP ends up at a Tier 1 b4 you get anywhere. Take out that Tier 1 and of course Cisco routers will re-route to one of the other Head end Tier 1's but remember only 7.
But its even easier then that. For instance recently Egypt decided to cut off all internet access. Instead of any physical damage they simply entered 9 Unix instructions to the Border Gateway Protocol. Takes a Syops Super User aka Snowden type, who with 9 separate typed commands, can kill route transfers at 100% of the Cisco or competitive routers.
Type 7 more Unix commands to then define, who can route so that the Egypt n Military Gov can use the system intact.
Which is why for instance the USA Nukes underground are hard wired on a secure not Net connect (designed b4 net invented) and yes its cables buried deep which does worry Gov as seen recently on 60 Minutes.
Critiques argue all Nukes should be Submarine Nukes.
Anonymous F replied with this 12 years ago, 2 minutes later, 12 hours after the original post[^] [v] #489,067
@previous (Syntax)
Yeah, countries can cut themselves off of course. And I'm not arguing that the BGP protocol is awfully trusting so any country can temporarily fuck shit up worldwide, but the point is that for the internet to disappear worldwide all countries would have to agree on it. It's built to be resilient.
Yeah, countries can cut themselves off of course. And I'm not arguing that the BGP protocol is awfully trusting so any country can temporarily fuck shit up worldwide, but the point is that for the internet to disappear worldwide all countries would have to agree on it. It's built to be resilient.
Syntax replied with this 12 years ago, 19 minutes later, 12 hours after the original post[^] [v] #489,070
@previous (F)
> It's built to be resilient
You mean it was really designed to be secure. I had to look up tyme line because wot I know is mostly from classes many many classes I took at Ericsson Sweden, AT&T and Qualcomm. Lots of class tyme but its really book larning and not so much Hands on EXCEPT for the Cell end of ISP, which is exactly the same as any other part of it but I AM NOT expertise in this. Just a good memory of classes I really really was not happy taking!
So a quick tyme line
> The origins of the Internet date back to research commissioned by the United States government in the 1960s to build robust, fault-tolerant communication via computer networks.
Wot more could anyone ask?
> The funding of a new U.S. backbone by the National Science Foundation in the 1980s, as well as private funding for other commercial backbones, led to worldwide participation in the development of new networking technologies, and the merger of many networks
> 1980s, the commercialization of what was by the 1990s an international network resulted in its popularization and incorporation into virtually every aspect of modern human life. As of June 2012, more than 2.4 billion people—over a third of the world's human population—have used the services of the Internet; approximately 100 times more people than were using it in 1995
So now cums the fly in ointment
> The Internet has no centralized governance in either technological implementation or policies for access and usage; each constituent network sets its own policies.
> The Internet is heterogeneous; for instance, data transfer rates and physical characteristics of connections vary widely, and exhibits emergent phenomena that depend on its large-scale organization. For example, data transfer rates exhibit temporal self-similarity.
> Outages
An Internet blackout or outage can be caused by local signaling interruptions. Disruptions of submarine communications cables may cause blackouts or slowdowns to large areas, such as in the 2008 submarine cable disruption.
> Less-developed countries are more vulnerable due to a small number of high-capacity links. Land cables are also vulnerable, as in 2011 when a woman digging for scrap metal severed most connectivity for the nation of Armenia.
> Internet blackouts affecting almost entire countries can be achieved by governments as a form of Internet censorship, as in the blockage of the Internet in Egypt, whereby approximately 93% of networks were without access in 2011 in an attempt to stop mobilization for anti-government protests. (7% was for Gov use only)
You have every right to think its resilient. I remember when 100% of AT&T nation wide USA lost all Long distance land lines for a simple software glitch, which took many many hours to correct. That was prior to Internet as we know it (net existed in development) and that type of software error wood today take out 100% of AT&T Cell phone as well as 1000's of ISP's who rely on AT&T as also a Tier one provider to the Head end.
My money is bet on the system not being so secure or resilient and yes there are huge numbers of people working on a to make it such, and a huge number working on how to destroy it in part or whole if need be.
> It's built to be resilient
You mean it was really designed to be secure. I had to look up tyme line because wot I know is mostly from classes many many classes I took at Ericsson Sweden, AT&T and Qualcomm. Lots of class tyme but its really book larning and not so much Hands on EXCEPT for the Cell end of ISP, which is exactly the same as any other part of it but I AM NOT expertise in this. Just a good memory of classes I really really was not happy taking!
So a quick tyme line
> The origins of the Internet date back to research commissioned by the United States government in the 1960s to build robust, fault-tolerant communication via computer networks.
Wot more could anyone ask?
> The funding of a new U.S. backbone by the National Science Foundation in the 1980s, as well as private funding for other commercial backbones, led to worldwide participation in the development of new networking technologies, and the merger of many networks
> 1980s, the commercialization of what was by the 1990s an international network resulted in its popularization and incorporation into virtually every aspect of modern human life. As of June 2012, more than 2.4 billion people—over a third of the world's human population—have used the services of the Internet; approximately 100 times more people than were using it in 1995
So now cums the fly in ointment
> The Internet has no centralized governance in either technological implementation or policies for access and usage; each constituent network sets its own policies.
> The Internet is heterogeneous; for instance, data transfer rates and physical characteristics of connections vary widely, and exhibits emergent phenomena that depend on its large-scale organization. For example, data transfer rates exhibit temporal self-similarity.
> Outages
An Internet blackout or outage can be caused by local signaling interruptions. Disruptions of submarine communications cables may cause blackouts or slowdowns to large areas, such as in the 2008 submarine cable disruption.
> Less-developed countries are more vulnerable due to a small number of high-capacity links. Land cables are also vulnerable, as in 2011 when a woman digging for scrap metal severed most connectivity for the nation of Armenia.
> Internet blackouts affecting almost entire countries can be achieved by governments as a form of Internet censorship, as in the blockage of the Internet in Egypt, whereby approximately 93% of networks were without access in 2011 in an attempt to stop mobilization for anti-government protests. (7% was for Gov use only)
You have every right to think its resilient. I remember when 100% of AT&T nation wide USA lost all Long distance land lines for a simple software glitch, which took many many hours to correct. That was prior to Internet as we know it (net existed in development) and that type of software error wood today take out 100% of AT&T Cell phone as well as 1000's of ISP's who rely on AT&T as also a Tier one provider to the Head end.
My money is bet on the system not being so secure or resilient and yes there are huge numbers of people working on a to make it such, and a huge number working on how to destroy it in part or whole if need be.
Anonymous F replied with this 12 years ago, 6 minutes later, 12 hours after the original post[^] [v] #489,071
@previous (Syntax)
Yeah, you're focussing on a single country constantly. You need to think world wide, and long term. Cutting a single cable will cause a temporary blackout (probably because the alternative cable can't handle all of the rerouted traffic), but more importantly the resolution is fixing the cable or drawing a new one and service can be restored. Also, the Europe<->Japan route can either go through Europe itself or through the USA. Both work, and if either malfunction then the other will still work at a reduced capacity. That is what I mean with resilient.
Also no, I do not mean it was meant to be secure. If any of the BGP servers get compromised an attacker can temporarily null-route an entire block of IP addresses.
Yeah, you're focussing on a single country constantly. You need to think world wide, and long term. Cutting a single cable will cause a temporary blackout (probably because the alternative cable can't handle all of the rerouted traffic), but more importantly the resolution is fixing the cable or drawing a new one and service can be restored. Also, the Europe<->Japan route can either go through Europe itself or through the USA. Both work, and if either malfunction then the other will still work at a reduced capacity. That is what I mean with resilient.
Also no, I do not mean it was meant to be secure. If any of the BGP servers get compromised an attacker can temporarily null-route an entire block of IP addresses.
Syntax replied with this 12 years ago, 1 hour later, 14 hours after the original post[^] [v] #489,082
@previous (F)
You got me to look at your map more closely. Picks up phone to call a pal at Verizon who routes me to a Verizon guy who is from the MCI era back when MCI ruled the Ocean and lots of world in heavy fiber for net and telco. Who here is Cornish? Killer Lettuce I think. Anyway that is where the Cable travels directly to New York. He said it starts our at only 6 feet down and dips to 6300 feet or so. Ships at the ready spread out over Planet Earth to go grab a broken cable (has happened) pull it up if real deep with robots and replace the broken section. I would have guessed wrong and figured they just put in a new section between repeaters. He said on board clean rooms allow splicing any broken fibers one by one with a team doing it. Can after pulling up the mess, fix a few in one day and many in several days. To many and then yes a full section from repeater to repeater.
Traffic from England would route through France and then to New York. He said traffic wood crawl to almost dial up rates during peak traffic tymes cause present design fully functioning is at edge of needing major upgrade or as one Mod on TC says a major revamp of Net BW now poorly optimized if at all. That BW reduction is beyond my pay grade.
Just betting that the slew of bad guys n good guys have major plans in place to fuck up a countries net. Rag Heads of course see net as not in Allah's plan n wood do as they do with grand plans. Some work some fizzle out as with shoe bomb. Underware also fizzle n burn the Rag Heads package.
You got me to look at your map more closely. Picks up phone to call a pal at Verizon who routes me to a Verizon guy who is from the MCI era back when MCI ruled the Ocean and lots of world in heavy fiber for net and telco. Who here is Cornish? Killer Lettuce I think. Anyway that is where the Cable travels directly to New York. He said it starts our at only 6 feet down and dips to 6300 feet or so. Ships at the ready spread out over Planet Earth to go grab a broken cable (has happened) pull it up if real deep with robots and replace the broken section. I would have guessed wrong and figured they just put in a new section between repeaters. He said on board clean rooms allow splicing any broken fibers one by one with a team doing it. Can after pulling up the mess, fix a few in one day and many in several days. To many and then yes a full section from repeater to repeater.
Traffic from England would route through France and then to New York. He said traffic wood crawl to almost dial up rates during peak traffic tymes cause present design fully functioning is at edge of needing major upgrade or as one Mod on TC says a major revamp of Net BW now poorly optimized if at all. That BW reduction is beyond my pay grade.
Just betting that the slew of bad guys n good guys have major plans in place to fuck up a countries net. Rag Heads of course see net as not in Allah's plan n wood do as they do with grand plans. Some work some fizzle out as with shoe bomb. Underware also fizzle n burn the Rag Heads package.
Anonymous A (OP) replied with this 12 years ago, 6 minutes later, 14 hours after the original post[^] [v] #489,085
How do we know nuclear weaponry will be involved?
Even nations know nuclear war leaves no victors so why use them knowing their enemies will use them back?
Even nations know nuclear war leaves no victors so why use them knowing their enemies will use them back?
Syntax replied with this 12 years ago, 28 minutes later, 14 hours after the original post[^] [v] #489,095
@previous (A)If you mean the A or H bombs? Hard to say given so many countries have them now or are in process of acquiring them. Did Ukraine really hand over 100% of wot they had to Russia a few years ago?
My fear is not so much a full blown H bomb. But I place bets on lots of dirty bombs fucking up Planet Earth.