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Minichan

Topic: FAO: Fake Anon

Anonymous A started this discussion 12 years ago #35,309

Would you consider Socrates to have been a martyr? I've been trying to figure this out, but there seem to be varying opinions. Help.

Killer Lettuce !!iNo3FkiZx joined in and replied with this 12 years ago, 3 minutes later[^] [v] #486,017

Oh, he's a famous rapper, right?

Anonymous A (OP) replied with this 12 years ago, 2 minutes later, 6 minutes after the original post[^] [v] #486,018

@previous (Killer Lettuce !!iNo3FkiZx)
Go away KL

Killer Lettuce !!iNo3FkiZx replied with this 12 years ago, 6 minutes later, 13 minutes after the original post[^] [v] #486,020

@previous (A)
No.

Anonymous C joined in and replied with this 12 years ago, 16 minutes later, 29 minutes after the original post[^] [v] #486,022

@486,017 (Killer Lettuce !!iNo3FkiZx)
He's a football player

Fake anon !ZkUt8arUCU joined in and replied with this 12 years ago, 27 minutes later, 57 minutes after the original post[^] [v] #486,024

@OP
Philosophers like to think of him as a martyr figure because it makes for a good story to tell, but I don't know how much of a martyr he actually was. His death was the result of being on the wrong side of politics in Ancient Athens which was not an uncommon thing at the time. Aristotle famously faced similar hostility but fled Athens before he was officially tried because he "would not let Athens sin twice against Philosophy". The most reliable source of info about his trial is Plato's "Apology", which is mostly a monologue of Socrates' defense at trial. I know that doesn't exactly answer your question, but that's because I don't really feel comfortable saying "yes" or "no". What's the context of this question?

(Edited 12 seconds later.)

Anonymous A (OP) replied with this 12 years ago, 5 minutes later, 1 hour after the original post[^] [v] #486,026

@previous (Fake anon !ZkUt8arUCU)
Thank you. I'm writing an essay about Socrates and was curious whether I should call him a martyr or not. Another q, do you think that Socrates had a specific "cause" and was glad to die for it? Or rather that he was more of a victim of the authority of Athens? or something else?

Fake anon !ZkUt8arUCU replied with this 12 years ago, 14 minutes later, 1 hour after the original post[^] [v] #486,028

@previous (A)
Sorry to copypaste but I don't think I can explain it better than Plato
Well, Chaerephon, as you know, was very impetuous in all his doings, and he went to Delphi and boldly asked the oracle to tell him whether - as I was saying, I must beg you not to interrupt - he asked the oracle to tell him whether there was anyone wiser than I was, and the Pythian prophetess answered that there was no man wiser. Chaerephon is dead himself, but his brother, who is in court, will confirm the truth of this story.

Why do I mention this? Because I am going to explain to you why I have such an evil name. When I heard the answer, I said to myself, What can the god mean? and what is the interpretation of this riddle? for I know that I have no wisdom, small or great. What can he mean when he says that I am the wisest of men? And yet he is a god and cannot lie; that would be against his nature. After a long consideration, I at last thought of a method of trying the question. I reflected that if I could only find a man wiser than myself, then I might go to the god with a refutation in my hand. I should say to him, "Here is a man who is wiser than I am; but you said that I was the wisest." Accordingly I went to one who had the reputation of wisdom, and observed to him - his name I need not mention; he was a politician whom I selected for examination - and the result was as follows: When I began to talk with him, I could not help thinking that he was not really wise, although he was thought wise by many, and wiser still by himself; and I went and tried to explain to him that he thought himself wise, but was not really wise; and the consequence was that he hated me, and his enmity was shared by several who were present and heard me. So I left him, saying to myself, as I went away: Well, although I do not suppose that either of us knows anything really beautiful and good, I am better off than he is - for he knows nothing, and thinks that he knows. I neither know nor think that I know. In this latter particular, then, I seem to have slightly the advantage of him. Then I went to another, who had still higher philosophical pretensions, and my conclusion was exactly the same. I made another enemy of him, and of many others besides him.

After this I went to one man after another, being not unconscious of the enmity which I provoked, and I lamented and feared this: but necessity was laid upon me - the word of God, I thought, ought to be considered first. And I said to myself, Go I must to all who appear to know, and find out the meaning of the oracle. And I swear to you, Athenians, by the dog I swear! - for I must tell you the truth - the result of my mission was just this: I found that the men most in repute were all but the most foolish; and that some inferior men were really wiser and better. I will tell you the tale of my wanderings and of the "Herculean" labors, as I may call them, which I endured only to find at last the oracle irrefutable. When I left the politicians, I went to the poets; tragic, dithyrambic, and all sorts. And there, I said to myself, you will be detected; now you will find out that you are more ignorant than they are. Accordingly, I took them some of the most elaborate passages in their own writings, and asked what was the meaning of them - thinking that they would teach me something. Will you believe me? I am almost ashamed to speak of this, but still I must say that there is hardly a person present who would not have talked better about their poetry than they did themselves. That showed me in an instant that not by wisdom do poets write poetry, but by a sort of genius and inspiration; they are like diviners or soothsayers who also say many fine things, but do not understand the meaning of them. And the poets appeared to me to be much in the same case; and I further observed that upon the strength of their poetry they believed themselves to be the wisest of men in other things in which they were not wise. So I departed, conceiving myself to be superior to them for the same reason that I was superior to the politicians.

At last I went to the artisans, for I was conscious that I knew nothing at all, as I may say, and I was sure that they knew many fine things; and in this I was not mistaken, for they did know many things of which I was ignorant, and in this they certainly were wiser than I was. But I observed that even the good artisans fell into the same error as the poets; because they were good workmen they thought that they also knew all sorts of high matters, and this defect in them overshadowed their wisdom - therefore I asked myself on behalf of the oracle, whether I would like to be as I was, neither having their knowledge nor their ignorance, or like them in both; and I made answer to myself and the oracle that I was better off as I was.

This investigation has led to my having many enemies of the worst and most dangerous kind, and has given occasion also to many calumnies, and I am called wise, for my hearers always imagine that I myself possess the wisdom which I find wanting in others: but the truth is, O men of Athens, that God only is wise; and in this oracle he means to say that the wisdom of men is little or nothing; he is not speaking of Socrates, he is only using my name as an illustration, as if he said, He, O men, is the wisest, who, like Socrates, knows that his wisdom is in truth worth nothing. And so I go my way, obedient to the god, and make inquisition into the wisdom of anyone, whether citizen or stranger, who appears to be wise; and if he is not wise, then in vindication of the oracle I show him that he is not wise; and this occupation quite absorbs me, and I have no time to give either to any public matter of interest or to any concern of my own, but I am in utter poverty by reason of my devotion to the god.

The tl;dr is, Socrates' friend asked the Oracle at Delphi if there was anyone wiser than Socrates. She says there is not. Socrates can not believe this so he goes around to everyone who is thought to be wise and engages in public arguments with them, but all of them end up looking like fools. Because he pissed off so many influential people by making them look dumb, they all sought revenge on him, and brought him to trial on trumped-up charges for which he was found guilty and sentenced to death.

(Edited 5 minutes later.)

Anonymous A (OP) replied with this 12 years ago, 21 minutes later, 1 hour after the original post[^] [v] #486,036

@previous (Fake anon !ZkUt8arUCU)
Thanks fake, makes much more sense now. u r #1

Fake anon !ZkUt8arUCU replied with this 12 years ago, 3 minutes later, 1 hour after the original post[^] [v] #486,037

@previous (A)
no problem!
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