Topic: Does a lesbian know a woman better than other women?
Anonymous A started this discussion 13 years ago #26,098
???
| Poll option | Votes | Percentage | Graph |
|---|---|---|---|
| Yes, of course. | 3 | 30% | |
| No. | 3 | 30% | |
| Depends. | 4 | 40% |
Anonymous B joined in and replied with this 13 years ago, 18 minutes later[^] [v] #394,864
No, I'd say a bisexual transwoman has the best knowledge of femininity, having lived life as both a man and a woman and having loved both men and women. Thanks.
buspup !!x+kkCmnF4 joined in and replied with this 13 years ago, 2 minutes later, 21 minutes after the original post[^] [v] #394,865
Anonymous B replied with this 13 years ago, 2 minutes later, 23 minutes after the original post[^] [v] #394,869
@previous (buspup !!x+kkCmnF4)
They may have fake vagunas, but they do have real vaginas thanks, thanx. Thanks.
They may have fake vagunas, but they do have real vaginas thanks, thanx. Thanks.
Anonymous C replied with this 13 years ago, 32 seconds later, 24 minutes after the original post[^] [v] #394,870
Anonymous B replied with this 13 years ago, 1 minute later, 25 minutes after the original post[^] [v] #394,872
Anonymous C replied with this 13 years ago, 1 minute later, 26 minutes after the original post[^] [v] #394,874
@previous (B)
yes, its not connected to any organs, has to be dilated daily, and sometimes only has depths of two inches.
yes, its not connected to any organs, has to be dilated daily, and sometimes only has depths of two inches.
Anonymous B replied with this 13 years ago, 6 minutes later, 32 minutes after the original post[^] [v] #394,875
@previous (C)
Okay. But it's still a hole in the body. Sometimes "real" vaginas are shallow too. Does that make the women with shallow vaginas fake too? How does it make a transwoman any less than a real woman? Are transmen fake men too?
Okay. But it's still a hole in the body. Sometimes "real" vaginas are shallow too. Does that make the women with shallow vaginas fake too? How does it make a transwoman any less than a real woman? Are transmen fake men too?
Anonymous C replied with this 13 years ago, 2 minutes later, 35 minutes after the original post[^] [v] #394,876
@previous (B)
That's like making a hand that doesnt move, but saying hey guys, it looks like a hand. Also, show me any source where any women has a two inch depth vagina, not connected to any organs. I'll wait.
That's like making a hand that doesnt move, but saying hey guys, it looks like a hand. Also, show me any source where any women has a two inch depth vagina, not connected to any organs. I'll wait.
Anonymous D joined in and replied with this 13 years ago, 3 minutes later, 39 minutes after the original post[^] [v] #394,877
Anonymous B replied with this 13 years ago, 21 seconds later, 39 minutes after the original post[^] [v] #394,878
@394,876 (C)
Okay so if a "real" woman has a hysterectomy, and her vagina is no longer connected to other organs, does she lose her womanhood?
Okay so if a "real" woman has a hysterectomy, and her vagina is no longer connected to other organs, does she lose her womanhood?
Anonymous C replied with this 13 years ago, 10 seconds later, 39 minutes after the original post[^] [v] #394,879
@394,875 (B)
This convo lets me know that you're a male. Because, if it has a hole, it must be a woman! lol
This convo lets me know that you're a male. Because, if it has a hole, it must be a woman! lol
Anonymous B replied with this 13 years ago, 1 minute later, 40 minutes after the original post[^] [v] #394,880
@previous (C)
You're the one who described transwomen's vaginas as "holes". Don't throw this on me bud.
You're the one who described transwomen's vaginas as "holes". Don't throw this on me bud.
Anonymous C replied with this 13 years ago, 11 seconds later, 40 minutes after the original post[^] [v] #394,881
@394,878 (B)
Nope, because she was born with those things and treated as a woman her whole life. So born a female, socialized a woman. Things that transwomen do not have, or experience.
Nope, because she was born with those things and treated as a woman her whole life. So born a female, socialized a woman. Things that transwomen do not have, or experience.
Anonymous C double-posted this 13 years ago, 33 seconds later, 41 minutes after the original post[^] [v] #394,882
Anonymous D replied with this 13 years ago, 27 seconds later, 41 minutes after the original post[^] [v] #394,883
Anonymous C replied with this 13 years ago, 40 seconds later, 42 minutes after the original post[^] [v] #394,884
So, you are a man anon B?
Anonymous C double-posted this 13 years ago, 56 seconds later, 43 minutes after the original post[^] [v] #394,885
Anon B, do you considered transwomen to be females, because you might be able to put a penis in that hole?
(Edited 10 seconds later.)
Anonymous C triple-posted this 13 years ago, 2 minutes later, 45 minutes after the original post[^] [v] #394,886
Anon B,do you believe that putting on makeup, and wearing dresses is what makes people women?
Anonymous D replied with this 13 years ago, 3 minutes later, 49 minutes after the original post[^] [v] #394,887
Anon B, do you consider every hole to be a goal?
Anonymous B replied with this 13 years ago, 5 minutes later, 54 minutes after the original post[^] [v] #394,888
Anonymous B double-posted this 13 years ago, 2 minutes later, 57 minutes after the original post[^] [v] #394,889
Anonymous B triple-posted this 13 years ago, 56 seconds later, 58 minutes after the original post[^] [v] #394,890
Anonymous D replied with this 13 years ago, 1 minute later, 59 minutes after the original post[^] [v] #394,891
Anonymous C replied with this 13 years ago, 1 minute later, 1 hour after the original post[^] [v] #394,892
@394,889 (B)
But many times, these men have working penises and slap on a dress and expect everyone to call them women.
But many times, these men have working penises and slap on a dress and expect everyone to call them women.
Anonymous C double-posted this 13 years ago, 42 seconds later, 1 hour after the original post[^] [v] #394,893
@394,890 (B)
What exactly, is your definition of woman? Could you get a doctor to put a vagina on you arm, and become a woman?
What exactly, is your definition of woman? Could you get a doctor to put a vagina on you arm, and become a woman?
Anonymous B replied with this 13 years ago, 44 seconds later, 1 hour after the original post[^] [v] #394,894
@394,891 (D)
I get it in the right hole every time with my club!
@394,892 (C)
No, you're thinking of drag queens and occasional crossdressers. Transwomen are women who were born into a male body. There is a difference.
I get it in the right hole every time with my club!
@394,892 (C)
No, you're thinking of drag queens and occasional crossdressers. Transwomen are women who were born into a male body. There is a difference.
Anonymous C replied with this 13 years ago, 17 seconds later, 1 hour after the original post[^] [v] #394,895
Could I get cat ears grafted on, and become a feline?
Anonymous C double-posted this 13 years ago, 27 seconds later, 1 hour after the original post[^] [v] #394,896
Anonymous C triple-posted this 13 years ago, 36 seconds later, 1 hour after the original post[^] [v] #394,897
Anonymous C quadruple-posted this 13 years ago, 2 minutes later, 1 hour after the original post[^] [v] #394,898
Does one need to experience feminine things, to be a woman? So would butch lesbians, not be women?
Anonymous D replied with this 13 years ago, 3 minutes later, 1 hour after the original post[^] [v] #394,899
@394,894 (B)
> Transwomen are women who were born into a male body. There is a difference.
This I can agree with. The sexually dimorphic nucleus in the brain of a transwoman often resembles that of an actual woman. There's a biological basis for their gender issues.
@394,896 (C)
This is a problem. I can sympathise with the tanspeople. Short of building them their own bathrooms I can't really see a compromise that would satisfy both parties.
> Transwomen are women who were born into a male body. There is a difference.
This I can agree with. The sexually dimorphic nucleus in the brain of a transwoman often resembles that of an actual woman. There's a biological basis for their gender issues.
@394,896 (C)
This is a problem. I can sympathise with the tanspeople. Short of building them their own bathrooms I can't really see a compromise that would satisfy both parties.
Anonymous B replied with this 13 years ago, 6 minutes later, 1 hour after the original post[^] [v] #394,900
@394,897 (C)
It's somewhat complicated, so try to bear with me: there is the biological concept of sex (XX vs XY chromosomes, ova vs sperm, or penis vs vagina), and there is gender (all the social/emotional gender role stuff we associate with male and female). For the vast, vast majority of people (95%+), their gender and their biological sex are the same. For a small percentage of people, they are different. That is, they are female-gendered (they identify as women, act like women, and feel like women) but genetically male so they have a penis (and it goes the other way too, with genetic females being male-gendered). It is not, not, not the same as throwing on a dress. It is a serious, lifelong thing.
It's somewhat complicated, so try to bear with me: there is the biological concept of sex (XX vs XY chromosomes, ova vs sperm, or penis vs vagina), and there is gender (all the social/emotional gender role stuff we associate with male and female). For the vast, vast majority of people (95%+), their gender and their biological sex are the same. For a small percentage of people, they are different. That is, they are female-gendered (they identify as women, act like women, and feel like women) but genetically male so they have a penis (and it goes the other way too, with genetic females being male-gendered). It is not, not, not the same as throwing on a dress. It is a serious, lifelong thing.
Anonymous B double-posted this 13 years ago, 1 minute later, 1 hour after the original post[^] [v] #394,901
Or, to state it simply: sex is what's between your legs, gender is whats between your ears.
(Edited 15 seconds later.)
Anonymous C replied with this 13 years ago, 1 hour later, 2 hours after the original post[^] [v] #394,928
@394,900 (B)
Um, no gender comes from socialization. Humans born as males are not socialized for the female gender. Often times these people are attracted to women, keep their penises, and call themselves female brained, but then make rape and violence threats to bio women, just like males. also, no woman is born liking dresses, and makeup, they are socialized to enjoy these things.
Um, no gender comes from socialization. Humans born as males are not socialized for the female gender. Often times these people are attracted to women, keep their penises, and call themselves female brained, but then make rape and violence threats to bio women, just like males. also, no woman is born liking dresses, and makeup, they are socialized to enjoy these things.
squeegee joined in and replied with this 13 years ago, 2 minutes later, 2 hours after the original post[^] [v] #394,929
Hey, lets discuss in black and white terms a gray area.
Anonymous C replied with this 13 years ago, 1 minute later, 2 hours after the original post[^] [v] #394,930
Also, anon b the fact that you actually think that born males somehow know women better after they get surgery to look like women, is just insulting and baffling.
Killer Lettuce !!iNo3FkiZx replied with this 13 years ago, 8 minutes later, 3 hours after the original post[^] [v] #394,933
@394,928 (C)
> Um, no gender comes from socialization.
No it doesn't. The weight of evidence strongly suggests that it's mostly, of not entirely biological in origin.
For a prime example, look up Bruce Reimer. He was a boy whose penis was cut off in a botched circumcision as a baby. On the advice of a pop psychologist, a concentrated effort was made to raise him as a girl. Despite this, he was always unhappy in that gender role and preferred stereotypically male things, e.g he preferred his brother's make toys. Upon learning of his true gender, he quickly adopted a male gender identity which he was much happier with.
Furthermore, many people with gender identity disorder will prefer behaviours and mannerisms of the opposite sex despite being raised as their biological gender.
> Um, no gender comes from socialization.
No it doesn't. The weight of evidence strongly suggests that it's mostly, of not entirely biological in origin.
For a prime example, look up Bruce Reimer. He was a boy whose penis was cut off in a botched circumcision as a baby. On the advice of a pop psychologist, a concentrated effort was made to raise him as a girl. Despite this, he was always unhappy in that gender role and preferred stereotypically male things, e.g he preferred his brother's make toys. Upon learning of his true gender, he quickly adopted a male gender identity which he was much happier with.
Furthermore, many people with gender identity disorder will prefer behaviours and mannerisms of the opposite sex despite being raised as their biological gender.
(Edited 4 minutes later.)
Anonymous C replied with this 13 years ago, 4 minutes later, 3 hours after the original post[^] [v] #394,934
@previous (Killer Lettuce !!iNo3FkiZx)
He struggled against wearing dresses, because he felt ridiculous wearing them. Many bio women do this, and they dont feel like men at all. Traditional trappings of women are ridiculous. That boy had to look at his identical twin wearing comfortable clothes, and suffer wearing dresses during the coldest of days, while his other girl classmates wore pants. Believing this, any little butch girls who wore pants, and played softball felt like men. That isnt true at all.
He struggled against wearing dresses, because he felt ridiculous wearing them. Many bio women do this, and they dont feel like men at all. Traditional trappings of women are ridiculous. That boy had to look at his identical twin wearing comfortable clothes, and suffer wearing dresses during the coldest of days, while his other girl classmates wore pants. Believing this, any little butch girls who wore pants, and played softball felt like men. That isnt true at all.
Anonymous C double-posted this 13 years ago, 2 minutes later, 3 hours after the original post[^] [v] #394,936
@previous (C)
Men who looked like males, were raised as males, are attracted to women, and keep their penises, are not women. The majority of transwomen are late in life transitioners who were treated like men their whole lives.
Men who looked like males, were raised as males, are attracted to women, and keep their penises, are not women. The majority of transwomen are late in life transitioners who were treated like men their whole lives.
(Edited 21 seconds later.)
Anonymous B replied with this 13 years ago, 27 seconds later, 3 hours after the original post[^] [v] #394,937
@394,928 (C)
Okay, so (hypothetically assuming) if someone had a baby girl and raised her as "male" (named her a male name, gave her boys clothes to wear, gave her a truck instead a doll to play with, etc, etc, etc) would that girl have a male gender with no femininity (or at least not anymore than most men have)?
Okay, so (hypothetically assuming) if someone had a baby girl and raised her as "male" (named her a male name, gave her boys clothes to wear, gave her a truck instead a doll to play with, etc, etc, etc) would that girl have a male gender with no femininity (or at least not anymore than most men have)?
Anonymous C replied with this 13 years ago, 52 seconds later, 3 hours after the original post[^] [v] #394,938
Anonymous C double-posted this 13 years ago, 3 minutes later, 3 hours after the original post[^] [v] #394,939
@394,933 (Killer Lettuce !!iNo3FkiZx)
Also, when Brian was growing up his peers, and strangers did not treat him as a woman. Even with long hair, and makeup he still looked like a male, and was mocked accordingly. Not only that, but his psychologist made him suffer the indignity of getting nude with his twin brother, and taking on the "passive" sex position, while telling him that some day, he would do that for his husband.
Also, when Brian was growing up his peers, and strangers did not treat him as a woman. Even with long hair, and makeup he still looked like a male, and was mocked accordingly. Not only that, but his psychologist made him suffer the indignity of getting nude with his twin brother, and taking on the "passive" sex position, while telling him that some day, he would do that for his husband.
Anonymous B replied with this 13 years ago, 29 seconds later, 3 hours after the original post[^] [v] #394,940
Anonymous C replied with this 13 years ago, 36 seconds later, 3 hours after the original post[^] [v] #394,941
@394,899 (D)
We should build them their own bathrooms. Its not fair to say that anyone with a penis is a threat to transwomen, but then also say that people with penises arent threats to bio women.
We should build them their own bathrooms. Its not fair to say that anyone with a penis is a threat to transwomen, but then also say that people with penises arent threats to bio women.
(Edited 15 seconds later.)
Anonymous C double-posted this 13 years ago, 41 seconds later, 3 hours after the original post[^] [v] #394,942
Anonymous C triple-posted this 13 years ago, 2 minutes later, 3 hours after the original post[^] [v] #394,943
Once during a doctors visit, they brought out a very scary, masculine transwomen to talk to Brian about how he should start hormones so that one day, the child could look like him. This terrified him so much, that he ran, and was chased by the transwoman, and then threatened suicide if he ever had to see his doctor again.
Valdair Cartman !0VegJ9Jl.Q joined in and replied with this 13 years ago, 1 minute later, 3 hours after the original post[^] [v] #394,944
Anonymous B replied with this 13 years ago, 14 seconds later, 3 hours after the original post[^] [v] #394,945
Killer Lettuce !!iNo3FkiZx replied with this 13 years ago, 3 seconds later, 3 hours after the original post[^] [v] #394,946
@394,934 (C)
But why did he revert so easily to a male gender identity despite several years of concentrated efforts to make him believe that he was a girl and socialise him as one? Surely if your viewpoint is correct, he should have believed that he was a girl and adopted feminine mannerisms and behaviours (becuase that's what they were trying to socialise into him)?
Also, the DSM defines gender identity disorder as an individual's external genetalia not matching up to the gender they're "designated" as in their brain.
- http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gender_identity
I'm not saying that socialisation isn't a factor at all, but from the evidence I've seen it's biological factors, usually the brain itself, that has the strongest influence on a person's gender identity.
But why did he revert so easily to a male gender identity despite several years of concentrated efforts to make him believe that he was a girl and socialise him as one? Surely if your viewpoint is correct, he should have believed that he was a girl and adopted feminine mannerisms and behaviours (becuase that's what they were trying to socialise into him)?
Also, the DSM defines gender identity disorder as an individual's external genetalia not matching up to the gender they're "designated" as in their brain.
The Diagnostic and Statistical Manual of Mental Disorders (302.85) has five criteria that must be met before a diagnosis of gender identity disorder can be made. "In gender identity disorder, there is discordance between the natal sex of one's external genitalia and the brain coding of one's gender as masculine or feminine."
- http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gender_identity
I'm not saying that socialisation isn't a factor at all, but from the evidence I've seen it's biological factors, usually the brain itself, that has the strongest influence on a person's gender identity.
Anonymous C replied with this 13 years ago, 34 seconds later, 3 hours after the original post[^] [v] #394,947
Anonymous C double-posted this 13 years ago, 4 minutes later, 3 hours after the original post[^] [v] #394,948
@394,946 (Killer Lettuce !!iNo3FkiZx)
They terrified him. He saw his identical twin being treated with respect, while he was forced against his wished to take on the ridiculous trappings of femininity. He was afraid of being seen as female because of how they tortured him. Imagine the life of looking exactly like your twin male twin brother, but being forced to wear a costume. Imagine being forced to take on the passive sex positions with your own brother, and being told that all women do this. There is nothing in female genetics, or brains that makes them like dresses, and make up. For most of Brians life, he felt like a lesbian.
They terrified him. He saw his identical twin being treated with respect, while he was forced against his wished to take on the ridiculous trappings of femininity. He was afraid of being seen as female because of how they tortured him. Imagine the life of looking exactly like your twin male twin brother, but being forced to wear a costume. Imagine being forced to take on the passive sex positions with your own brother, and being told that all women do this. There is nothing in female genetics, or brains that makes them like dresses, and make up. For most of Brians life, he felt like a lesbian.
(Edited 13 seconds later.)
Anonymous C triple-posted this 13 years ago, 1 minute later, 3 hours after the original post[^] [v] #394,950
A question, if someone rejects their assigned gender role, do they actually feel like a member of the other gender? So, if you have a gay male, who likes "feminine" things, does he really feel like a woman?
Anonymous B replied with this 13 years ago, 3 minutes later, 3 hours after the original post[^] [v] #394,951
Anonymous C replied with this 13 years ago, 47 seconds later, 3 hours after the original post[^] [v] #394,952
Killer Lettuce !!iNo3FkiZx replied with this 13 years ago, 1 minute later, 3 hours after the original post[^] [v] #394,953
@394,939 (C)
> Also, when Brian was growing up his peers, and strangers did not treat him as a woman. Even with long hair, and makeup he still looked like a male, and was mocked accordingly.
His uncomfortableness with his gender began before he started growing up and adopting a more mannish appearence. He claimed that he was never comfortable with his false gender role.
> Not only that, but his psychologist made him suffer the indignity of getting nude with his twin brother, and taking on the "passive" sex position, while telling him that some day, he would do that for his husband.
This was fucking weird, but I don't see how it would implant the idea that he was male into his head.
Brian was the brother, btw. The one who was raised as a girl was born Bruce and later changed his name to David.
@394,948 (C)
> but being forced to wear a costume.
But how would he know that there was anything unusual with his treatment if it's all socialisation?
There's still the matter of people who are uncomfortable with theit birth gender. Why would they feel this way, if not for an innate feeling of being in the wrong body? The idea that gender is socialised just cannot explain people with gender identity disorder who are raised as their birth gender.
> Also, when Brian was growing up his peers, and strangers did not treat him as a woman. Even with long hair, and makeup he still looked like a male, and was mocked accordingly.
His uncomfortableness with his gender began before he started growing up and adopting a more mannish appearence. He claimed that he was never comfortable with his false gender role.
> Not only that, but his psychologist made him suffer the indignity of getting nude with his twin brother, and taking on the "passive" sex position, while telling him that some day, he would do that for his husband.
This was fucking weird, but I don't see how it would implant the idea that he was male into his head.
Brian was the brother, btw. The one who was raised as a girl was born Bruce and later changed his name to David.
@394,948 (C)
> but being forced to wear a costume.
But how would he know that there was anything unusual with his treatment if it's all socialisation?
There's still the matter of people who are uncomfortable with theit birth gender. Why would they feel this way, if not for an innate feeling of being in the wrong body? The idea that gender is socialised just cannot explain people with gender identity disorder who are raised as their birth gender.
Anonymous B replied with this 13 years ago, 20 seconds later, 3 hours after the original post[^] [v] #394,954
@394,952 (C)
Good lord, you've asked for elaboration like four times now. Just answer the goddamn question.
Or, since you're such an expert, you tell me what they are.
Good lord, you've asked for elaboration like four times now. Just answer the goddamn question.
Or, since you're such an expert, you tell me what they are.
(Edited 2 minutes later.)
Anonymous C replied with this 13 years ago, 4 minutes later, 3 hours after the original post[^] [v] #394,955
@394,953 (Killer Lettuce !!iNo3FkiZx)
They brother fucking thing, and constant scary doctors visit where he was told that they were helping him be a woman, could have very well scared him away from the the very idea of womenhood. Also, If you looked at your identical twin who wore comfortable clothes, well wouldn't your own clothes feel like a ridiculous joke?
I believe that some people could actually feel like the opposite gender, but that its very rare. Many times these are men with fetishes, who want everyone to believe in a lie.
I mean, if you were raised as a woman, are attracted to women, retain your penis, and sometimes even impregnate women before the transition, can you actually call yourself a woman? This is the truth for many men who call themselves trans.
They brother fucking thing, and constant scary doctors visit where he was told that they were helping him be a woman, could have very well scared him away from the the very idea of womenhood. Also, If you looked at your identical twin who wore comfortable clothes, well wouldn't your own clothes feel like a ridiculous joke?
I believe that some people could actually feel like the opposite gender, but that its very rare. Many times these are men with fetishes, who want everyone to believe in a lie.
I mean, if you were raised as a woman, are attracted to women, retain your penis, and sometimes even impregnate women before the transition, can you actually call yourself a woman? This is the truth for many men who call themselves trans.
Anonymous C double-posted this 13 years ago, 28 seconds later, 3 hours after the original post[^] [v] #394,956
@394,954 (B)
You havent elaborated at all. What counts as feminine to you? I cant answer without your opinion.
You havent elaborated at all. What counts as feminine to you? I cant answer without your opinion.
(Edited 22 seconds later.)
Anonymous B replied with this 13 years ago, 4 minutes later, 3 hours after the original post[^] [v] #394,958
@previous (C)
Fuck it, it doesn't matter; you'll just for elaboration ad nauseum and avoid answering any real questions. Enjoy your 1950's view of sex and gender.
Fuck it, it doesn't matter; you'll just for elaboration ad nauseum and avoid answering any real questions. Enjoy your 1950's view of sex and gender.
Anonymous C replied with this 13 years ago, 58 seconds later, 3 hours after the original post[^] [v] #394,959
Anonymous B replied with this 13 years ago, 3 minutes later, 3 hours after the original post[^] [v] #394,963
Anonymous C replied with this 13 years ago, 3 minutes later, 3 hours after the original post[^] [v] #394,964
@previous (B)
Well you can name some things that you associate with the typical gender role. I'm not arguing with you right now, because this was an interesting question. Its just hard to answer, without your input. For one thing, a girl child raised as a boy might very much enjoy sports, but that wouldn't change her brain.
Well you can name some things that you associate with the typical gender role. I'm not arguing with you right now, because this was an interesting question. Its just hard to answer, without your input. For one thing, a girl child raised as a boy might very much enjoy sports, but that wouldn't change her brain.
Anonymous C double-posted this 13 years ago, 2 minutes later, 3 hours after the original post[^] [v] #394,966
btw, anyone who hasnt heard of David Reimer should look him up, because that was some fucked up, child abuse bullshit of epic proportions.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/David_Reimer
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/David_Reimer
Anonymous B replied with this 13 years ago, 16 minutes later, 4 hours after the original post[^] [v] #394,969
@394,964 (C)
I'd say we're even then. You can't answer a simple question and I can't define gender roles good enough for you.
I'd say we're even then. You can't answer a simple question and I can't define gender roles good enough for you.
Anonymous C replied with this 13 years ago, 2 minutes later, 4 hours after the original post[^] [v] #394,972
@previous (B)
Um, you didnt try at all. Lets look at farm children. They are generally raise their children from a young age to work, and so dont encourage their female children to wear dresses, and do train them to perform hard, manual labor.
Um, you didnt try at all. Lets look at farm children. They are generally raise their children from a young age to work, and so dont encourage their female children to wear dresses, and do train them to perform hard, manual labor.
(Edited 27 seconds later.)
Anonymous B replied with this 13 years ago, 3 minutes later, 4 hours after the original post[^] [v] #394,977
@previous (C)
I tried four times to define it, even posting the Merriam-Webster definition of gender. You can fault me for many things, but persistence is not one of them.
I tried four times to define it, even posting the Merriam-Webster definition of gender. You can fault me for many things, but persistence is not one of them.
Anonymous B double-posted this 13 years ago, 2 minutes later, 4 hours after the original post[^] [v] #394,979
@394,972 (C)
I don't think manual labor or hard work is either feminine or masculine. And one has to wear clothes appropriate to the occupation. During WWII when many women were employed in factories, they wore overalls and pants just like men even though it was somewhat taboo for women to do so at that time. But they did it out of occupational necessity, not as an expression of gender.
I don't think manual labor or hard work is either feminine or masculine. And one has to wear clothes appropriate to the occupation. During WWII when many women were employed in factories, they wore overalls and pants just like men even though it was somewhat taboo for women to do so at that time. But they did it out of occupational necessity, not as an expression of gender.
Anonymous G joined in and replied with this 13 years ago, 1 minute later, 4 hours after the original post[^] [v] #394,981
Does a lesbian know a woman better than other women?
Yes as KNOW in the biblical sense.
Yes as KNOW in the biblical sense.
Anonymous C replied with this 13 years ago, 3 seconds later, 4 hours after the original post[^] [v] #394,982
@394,977 (B)
You didnt actually name anything. What is feminine to you, personally? What traditional trappings do women have? Above, I just showed a way in which girl children can be raised to take on what might be consider a typical male roles. I don't need a Websters dictionary definition, lol but your own personal opinion on this. To you, what is the traditional female gender role?
You didnt actually name anything. What is feminine to you, personally? What traditional trappings do women have? Above, I just showed a way in which girl children can be raised to take on what might be consider a typical male roles. I don't need a Websters dictionary definition, lol but your own personal opinion on this. To you, what is the traditional female gender role?
Anonymous C double-posted this 13 years ago, 43 seconds later, 4 hours after the original post[^] [v] #394,984
@394,979 (B)
Okay, so you dont see those things as masculine(wearing pants, hard labor). What types of things are masculine?
Okay, so you dont see those things as masculine(wearing pants, hard labor). What types of things are masculine?
(Edited 46 seconds later.)
WadeWilson !ImAdick7a2 joined in and replied with this 13 years ago, 51 seconds later, 4 hours after the original post[^] [v] #394,986
Nah
Killer Lettuce !!iNo3FkiZx replied with this 13 years ago, 4 minutes later, 4 hours after the original post[^] [v] #394,994
@394,955 (C)
The clothes aren't the issue, it's the fact that he never felt comfortable in a female gender role and easily adopted a male gender role despite years of socialisation as a female.
> I believe that some people could actually feel like the opposite gender, but that its very rare. Many times these are men with fetishes, who want everyone to believe in a lie.
No. People with gender identity disorder have a real problem. They are not perverts. Yes, men with a "dress up up as and act like a woman" fetish exist, but people with a genuine feeling of being another gender are not a minority compared to the fetishises.
Also, found a study in which researchers found that the brains of men who wanted to be women had a difference to those of normal men. This would suggest a strong biological influence on gender identity.
The clothes aren't the issue, it's the fact that he never felt comfortable in a female gender role and easily adopted a male gender role despite years of socialisation as a female.
> I believe that some people could actually feel like the opposite gender, but that its very rare. Many times these are men with fetishes, who want everyone to believe in a lie.
No. People with gender identity disorder have a real problem. They are not perverts. Yes, men with a "dress up up as and act like a woman" fetish exist, but people with a genuine feeling of being another gender are not a minority compared to the fetishises.
Also, found a study in which researchers found that the brains of men who wanted to be women had a difference to those of normal men. This would suggest a strong biological influence on gender identity.
Anonymous B replied with this 13 years ago, 11 seconds later, 4 hours after the original post[^] [v] #394,995
@394,982 (C)
> You didnt actually name anything. What is feminine to you, personally? What traditional trappings do women have?
Wearing female clothes, makeup, being emotionally sensitive, being more cooperative than competitive, being more emotionally expressive.
> Above, I just showed a way in which girl children can be raised to take on what might be consider a typical male roles. I don't need a Websters dictionary definition, lol but your own personal opinion on this. To you, what is the traditional female gender role?
The traditional one would be the man goes out working/hunting/providing and the woman takes care of the home and raising kids.
> Okay, so you dont see those things as masculine(wearing pants, hard labor). What types of things are masculine?
Competition, being stoic emotionally, hunting, battle, being strong physically, competitive sports.
> You didnt actually name anything. What is feminine to you, personally? What traditional trappings do women have?
Wearing female clothes, makeup, being emotionally sensitive, being more cooperative than competitive, being more emotionally expressive.
> Above, I just showed a way in which girl children can be raised to take on what might be consider a typical male roles. I don't need a Websters dictionary definition, lol but your own personal opinion on this. To you, what is the traditional female gender role?
The traditional one would be the man goes out working/hunting/providing and the woman takes care of the home and raising kids.
> Okay, so you dont see those things as masculine(wearing pants, hard labor). What types of things are masculine?
Competition, being stoic emotionally, hunting, battle, being strong physically, competitive sports.
Anonymous C replied with this 13 years ago, 52 seconds later, 4 hours after the original post[^] [v] #394,996
Anonymous C double-posted this 13 years ago, 4 minutes later, 4 hours after the original post[^] [v] #395,004
@394,994 (Killer Lettuce !!iNo3FkiZx)
That's the thing, some are perverts. The majority of these transwomen, retain their penises, are attracted to women, and try to push to be able to shower with women in their locker rooms, and use their bathrooms. If you transition late in life, keep your penis, and/or have impregnated a woman, you cannot realistically call yourself a woman. Also, many have been socialized as male (the way that they were treated by society for looking like a male, and having a penis) with a sense of entitlement regarding woman bodies. Just like bio men. Thats why this cotton ceiling thing even exists.
That's the thing, some are perverts. The majority of these transwomen, retain their penises, are attracted to women, and try to push to be able to shower with women in their locker rooms, and use their bathrooms. If you transition late in life, keep your penis, and/or have impregnated a woman, you cannot realistically call yourself a woman. Also, many have been socialized as male (the way that they were treated by society for looking like a male, and having a penis) with a sense of entitlement regarding woman bodies. Just like bio men. Thats why this cotton ceiling thing even exists.
Anonymous C triple-posted this 13 years ago, 4 minutes later, 4 hours after the original post[^] [v] #395,006
@394,995 (B)
Okay, so we can take working/hunting/providing off of this list because it is a thing of necessity for both women and men. Correct?
Okay, so we can take working/hunting/providing off of this list because it is a thing of necessity for both women and men. Correct?
Anonymous B replied with this 13 years ago, 3 minutes later, 4 hours after the original post[^] [v] #395,009
@previous (C)
Not really. Yes, today women have jobs and raise kids alone, etc but for most of human history it worked something like this: A man and woman would marry and have kids. The man would go out and work/hunt/whatever to provide the family with money and food and the woman would stay home raising the kids and doing the cooking and housework (and before washing machines and dishwashers and microwaves and Roombas, this was a full-time job).
Not really. Yes, today women have jobs and raise kids alone, etc but for most of human history it worked something like this: A man and woman would marry and have kids. The man would go out and work/hunt/whatever to provide the family with money and food and the woman would stay home raising the kids and doing the cooking and housework (and before washing machines and dishwashers and microwaves and Roombas, this was a full-time job).
Anonymous C replied with this 13 years ago, 4 minutes later, 4 hours after the original post[^] [v] #395,011
@previous (B)
True, but many weren't allowed to work, and now we use socialization to allow women to perform these roles. So regarding your original question, we could raise a lesbian female child to subvert this particular gender role. But we couldn't change the reality of her body having less muscle mass, and having less upper body strength.
True, but many weren't allowed to work, and now we use socialization to allow women to perform these roles. So regarding your original question, we could raise a lesbian female child to subvert this particular gender role. But we couldn't change the reality of her body having less muscle mass, and having less upper body strength.
Killer Lettuce !!iNo3FkiZx replied with this 13 years ago, 10 seconds later, 4 hours after the original post[^] [v] #395,012
@395,004 (C)
> some are perverts.
I doubt that there's any concrete way of establishing how many are genuine, and how many are "perverts". Short getting completely honest interviews out of all of them, we can't really say for sure how genuine they're being.
Also, it should be noted that not all trans people are angry militants that make awkward demands. I'd imagine that some just want to live quiet lives and live it as the gender they feel they are inside.
All I can say about the bathroom thing is that it's a sad situation. Building them their own bathrooms seems to be ideal, but that just segregates them further and makes them feel like "others". Honestly, I can't think of a good solution that works for all parties, at the moment.
> some are perverts.
I doubt that there's any concrete way of establishing how many are genuine, and how many are "perverts". Short getting completely honest interviews out of all of them, we can't really say for sure how genuine they're being.
Also, it should be noted that not all trans people are angry militants that make awkward demands. I'd imagine that some just want to live quiet lives and live it as the gender they feel they are inside.
All I can say about the bathroom thing is that it's a sad situation. Building them their own bathrooms seems to be ideal, but that just segregates them further and makes them feel like "others". Honestly, I can't think of a good solution that works for all parties, at the moment.
Anonymous C replied with this 13 years ago, 46 seconds later, 4 hours after the original post[^] [v] #395,014
@395,009 (B)
Also in nature, many times female animals do hunt. Like with lions for instance. Female lions do the majority of hunting.
Also in nature, many times female animals do hunt. Like with lions for instance. Female lions do the majority of hunting.
Anonymous C double-posted this 13 years ago, 57 seconds later, 4 hours after the original post[^] [v] #395,015
@395,012 (Killer Lettuce !!iNo3FkiZx)
I believe that if you still have your penis, you need to use the matching facilities.
I believe that if you still have your penis, you need to use the matching facilities.
Killer Lettuce !!iNo3FkiZx replied with this 13 years ago, 3 minutes later, 4 hours after the original post[^] [v] #395,019
@previous (C)
Probably the most realistic solution for it, I suppose. I still feel a little sorry for them. They can't help feeling that way.
Probably the most realistic solution for it, I suppose. I still feel a little sorry for them. They can't help feeling that way.
(Edited 7 minutes later.)
Anonymous B replied with this 13 years ago, 1 minute later, 4 hours after the original post[^] [v] #395,021
@395,014 (C)
Well, the roles are obviously different for different species. Look at all those insects where the male dies after sex or all the bird species where the female is boring looking and the male one is the brightly colored pretty one.
Well, the roles are obviously different for different species. Look at all those insects where the male dies after sex or all the bird species where the female is boring looking and the male one is the brightly colored pretty one.
Anonymous C replied with this 13 years ago, 11 seconds later, 4 hours after the original post[^] [v] #395,022
Anonymous C double-posted this 13 years ago, 3 minutes later, 4 hours after the original post[^] [v] #395,024
@395,021 (B)
Yes, that is true, but it doesnt really change anything. We can, and have socialized females to work and provide. Also, females have always been gatherers, which does provide food, usually more consistently than hunting, and would necessitate leaving the home. That's probably one of the reasons (besides child birth) that the have more lower body strength than males. So that they can carry things, and run! lol
Yes, that is true, but it doesnt really change anything. We can, and have socialized females to work and provide. Also, females have always been gatherers, which does provide food, usually more consistently than hunting, and would necessitate leaving the home. That's probably one of the reasons (besides child birth) that the have more lower body strength than males. So that they can carry things, and run! lol
Anonymous C triple-posted this 13 years ago, 5 minutes later, 4 hours after the original post[^] [v] #395,027
Also something weird, in many middle eastern countries, the women do the majority of the work, while the men fuck around and drink tea, and play cards. Bizarre.
Anonymous B replied with this 13 years ago, 7 minutes later, 5 hours after the original post[^] [v] #395,028
@395,024 (C)
Yes. And nowadays its quite fine for women to act male. A woman can wear pants and join the army and not wear makeup, and pretty much anything else. But men aren't really allowed to be feminine.
Also, you repeatedly, even though you know better, describe transwomen as perverts who put on dresses just so they can see women get changed in the locker room. I guess you also view homosexuality as a lifestyle preference?
Yes. And nowadays its quite fine for women to act male. A woman can wear pants and join the army and not wear makeup, and pretty much anything else. But men aren't really allowed to be feminine.
Also, you repeatedly, even though you know better, describe transwomen as perverts who put on dresses just so they can see women get changed in the locker room. I guess you also view homosexuality as a lifestyle preference?
Anonymous C replied with this 13 years ago, 1 minute later, 5 hours after the original post[^] [v] #395,029
@previous (B)
This is a different argument entirely. We were talking of how children can be trained to subvert gender roles. Would you like to discuss something else?
This is a different argument entirely. We were talking of how children can be trained to subvert gender roles. Would you like to discuss something else?
Anonymous B replied with this 13 years ago, 7 minutes later, 5 hours after the original post[^] [v] #395,032
Anonymous C replied with this 13 years ago, 2 minutes later, 5 hours after the original post[^] [v] #395,033
@previous (B)
You asked me if it was possible to raise a child to accept, and display gender roles of the opposite sex. We've established that you can. If you have another query, let me know.
You asked me if it was possible to raise a child to accept, and display gender roles of the opposite sex. We've established that you can. If you have another query, let me know.
Killer Lettuce !!iNo3FkiZx replied with this 13 years ago, 3 minutes later, 5 hours after the original post[^] [v] #395,036
@395,029 (C)
> children can be trained to subvert gender roles
Eh, still not sold on this. There's Reimer, and I saw a video in a lecture where a woman's daughter (who had gender identity disorder) actually rejected her female name and demanded to be called by a male one.
But the idea of natural gender identities and the fact that women can adopt stereotypically male roles aren't incompatible. Rather, it suggests that gender identities aren't necessarily very restrictive things at all.
@395,028 (B)
> But men aren't really allowed to be feminine.
I'd say that this has improved. If nothing else, society's tolerance for more feminine-acting men has improved.
> children can be trained to subvert gender roles
Eh, still not sold on this. There's Reimer, and I saw a video in a lecture where a woman's daughter (who had gender identity disorder) actually rejected her female name and demanded to be called by a male one.
But the idea of natural gender identities and the fact that women can adopt stereotypically male roles aren't incompatible. Rather, it suggests that gender identities aren't necessarily very restrictive things at all.
@395,028 (B)
> But men aren't really allowed to be feminine.
I'd say that this has improved. If nothing else, society's tolerance for more feminine-acting men has improved.
(Edited 46 seconds later.)
Anonymous C replied with this 13 years ago, 11 minutes later, 5 hours after the original post[^] [v] #395,038
@previous (Killer Lettuce !!iNo3FkiZx)
Could be true, but many children go through that phase where they asked to be called a boy or vice versa. Also, there are a lot of men and women who rejected their traditional gender roles, from the beginning, and still never felt like the opposite sex. So maybe transexuality isn't about gender or sex at all but something else.
Could be true, but many children go through that phase where they asked to be called a boy or vice versa. Also, there are a lot of men and women who rejected their traditional gender roles, from the beginning, and still never felt like the opposite sex. So maybe transexuality isn't about gender or sex at all but something else.
Killer Lettuce !!iNo3FkiZx replied with this 13 years ago, 14 minutes later, 5 hours after the original post[^] [v] #395,042
@previous (C)
I believe that that child persisted in adopting a male name and wanting to be a boy. I'd try to find more research on the matter, but a light search isn't quite turning up anything suitable.
But yeah, gender identity is easy enough to pin down as being mostly being caused by the brain, but broader gender roles and behaviours are a little harder to study. While researchers have found that boys and girls display different behaviours from an early age, ypu've got cases like this (be sure to read this, you'd find it really interesting) where a society doesn't conform to our views of gender at all. In short, I'd say that gender roles and behaviours are more of a mix of nature and nurture, as opposed to being mostly nature.
I believe that that child persisted in adopting a male name and wanting to be a boy. I'd try to find more research on the matter, but a light search isn't quite turning up anything suitable.
But yeah, gender identity is easy enough to pin down as being mostly being caused by the brain, but broader gender roles and behaviours are a little harder to study. While researchers have found that boys and girls display different behaviours from an early age, ypu've got cases like this (be sure to read this, you'd find it really interesting) where a society doesn't conform to our views of gender at all. In short, I'd say that gender roles and behaviours are more of a mix of nature and nurture, as opposed to being mostly nature.
Anonymous C replied with this 13 years ago, 10 minutes later, 5 hours after the original post[^] [v] #395,047
Anonymous C double-posted this 13 years ago, 11 minutes later, 6 hours after the original post[^] [v] #395,058
@395,042 (Killer Lettuce !!iNo3FkiZx)
The thing that's interesting about this article was that it showed that women could posses so called masculine traits, the men could have feminine traits, but they still considered themselves to be women and men. Why is that?
The thing that's interesting about this article was that it showed that women could posses so called masculine traits, the men could have feminine traits, but they still considered themselves to be women and men. Why is that?
Killer Lettuce !!iNo3FkiZx replied with this 13 years ago, 34 minutes later, 6 hours after the original post[^] [v] #395,069
@previous (C)
> they still considered themselves to be women and men. Why is that?
Basic biological differences. A woman can be a fearsome hunter and a man can be a sensitive stay-at-home tribesmember, but the genitals and their funtion isn't any different to those found anywhere else.
> they still considered themselves to be women and men. Why is that?
Basic biological differences. A woman can be a fearsome hunter and a man can be a sensitive stay-at-home tribesmember, but the genitals and their funtion isn't any different to those found anywhere else.
(Edited 40 seconds later.)
Anonymous C replied with this 13 years ago, 25 minutes later, 7 hours after the original post[^] [v] #395,077
@previous (Killer Lettuce !!iNo3FkiZx)
But shouldnt it be the same in Western countries? Why aren't the feminine men, saying that they were born in the wrong body?
But shouldnt it be the same in Western countries? Why aren't the feminine men, saying that they were born in the wrong body?
Killer Lettuce !!iNo3FkiZx replied with this 13 years ago, 24 minutes later, 7 hours after the original post[^] [v] #395,082
@previous (C)
Because their culture holds a different view on gender than ours.
Also, it should noted that the article I cited says that she may have downplayed stuff that contradicted what she wanted to find. There may have been things that were consistent with our ideas of tpyical gender roles.
Because their culture holds a different view on gender than ours.
Also, it should noted that the article I cited says that she may have downplayed stuff that contradicted what she wanted to find. There may have been things that were consistent with our ideas of tpyical gender roles.
Anonymous C replied with this 13 years ago, 3 minutes later, 7 hours after the original post[^] [v] #395,085
@previous (Killer Lettuce !!iNo3FkiZx)
Okay, but it that shouldnt matter. If its actually a biological thing, we should see it everywhere right? Just like with gay people. Because looking at this, it seems like when they allow men to have some feminine traits, without stigma, they can do so without declaring themselves to be women.
Okay, but it that shouldnt matter. If its actually a biological thing, we should see it everywhere right? Just like with gay people. Because looking at this, it seems like when they allow men to have some feminine traits, without stigma, they can do so without declaring themselves to be women.
Anonymous I joined in and replied with this 13 years ago, 7 minutes later, 7 hours after the original post[^] [v] #395,088
100 get
Killer Lettuce !!iNo3FkiZx replied with this 13 years ago, 10 minutes later, 7 hours after the original post[^] [v] #395,096
@395,085 (C)
I was arguing that gender identity, not roles are mostly influenced by biology. Their views on gender roles were obviously different, so of course they're not going to hold themselves to the same standards.
From the evidence I've seen, gender identity is influenced mostly by biology, while gender roles/behaviours are significantly influenced by both.
Also, figured I should look at the followup work done after Mead, since it was an old study, and found this on Wikipedia:
[[Women of the Chambri
In Margaret Mead’s field study research in 1933 in Papua New Guinea, she outlined a position of women in the Chambri community that was unusual to what had been thought to be the norm across cultures. She speculated that women in the Chambri were the power individuals within the villages instead of men. How Margaret came to this conclusion was based on a few attributes of the Chambri. She first noted that the Chambri women were the primary suppliers of food. Contrary to other cultures the Chambri women were the ones who did the fishing for the community. This empowerment and responsibility of the women lends to the idea of a higher importance of women within this society. Through further observation Mead found that women also took the fish they caught and not only supplied it as food for their families but traveled to trade the surplus. It was the women’s job to take the extra fish caught and travel into the surrounding hills to barter for sago for their families. Once again instead of the primary provider being the man in the family, Mead was witnessing the wife taking this role. However as later anthropologists Deborah Gewertz and Frederick Errington discovered, these actions do not control the relationships between men and women of the Chambri. The women being the sole provider for the family does not imply submission by the man. The men in the Chambri society are involved in other areas within the community, many of which are not deemed appropriate for the women. Such areas include politics and power within the tribe. This lack of involvement by women in these areas further suggest Mead’s original claim of women’s dominance may have been rooted in a lack of full observance of the activities in the Chambri society. Instead what later anthropologists found was that neither sex competed to be the dominant one. Within each sex dominance occurred and was witnessed, however this behavior failed to cross the sex barrier. Specifically neither group was viewed to follow or be submissive to the other. This lack of a dominant individual within a relationship allows for speculation that the role of women in a civilization can drastically be determined by its customs.]]
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chambri_people#Women_of_the_Chambri
So it would appear that he observation of the most "radical" tribe wasn't quite correct. Still interesting though, since they appear to be mostly equal.
I was arguing that gender identity, not roles are mostly influenced by biology. Their views on gender roles were obviously different, so of course they're not going to hold themselves to the same standards.
From the evidence I've seen, gender identity is influenced mostly by biology, while gender roles/behaviours are significantly influenced by both.
Also, figured I should look at the followup work done after Mead, since it was an old study, and found this on Wikipedia:
[[Women of the Chambri
In Margaret Mead’s field study research in 1933 in Papua New Guinea, she outlined a position of women in the Chambri community that was unusual to what had been thought to be the norm across cultures. She speculated that women in the Chambri were the power individuals within the villages instead of men. How Margaret came to this conclusion was based on a few attributes of the Chambri. She first noted that the Chambri women were the primary suppliers of food. Contrary to other cultures the Chambri women were the ones who did the fishing for the community. This empowerment and responsibility of the women lends to the idea of a higher importance of women within this society. Through further observation Mead found that women also took the fish they caught and not only supplied it as food for their families but traveled to trade the surplus. It was the women’s job to take the extra fish caught and travel into the surrounding hills to barter for sago for their families. Once again instead of the primary provider being the man in the family, Mead was witnessing the wife taking this role. However as later anthropologists Deborah Gewertz and Frederick Errington discovered, these actions do not control the relationships between men and women of the Chambri. The women being the sole provider for the family does not imply submission by the man. The men in the Chambri society are involved in other areas within the community, many of which are not deemed appropriate for the women. Such areas include politics and power within the tribe. This lack of involvement by women in these areas further suggest Mead’s original claim of women’s dominance may have been rooted in a lack of full observance of the activities in the Chambri society. Instead what later anthropologists found was that neither sex competed to be the dominant one. Within each sex dominance occurred and was witnessed, however this behavior failed to cross the sex barrier. Specifically neither group was viewed to follow or be submissive to the other. This lack of a dominant individual within a relationship allows for speculation that the role of women in a civilization can drastically be determined by its customs.]]
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chambri_people#Women_of_the_Chambri
So it would appear that he observation of the most "radical" tribe wasn't quite correct. Still interesting though, since they appear to be mostly equal.
Killer Lettuce !!iNo3FkiZx double-posted this 13 years ago, 53 seconds later, 7 hours after the original post[^] [v] #395,097
Anonymous C replied with this 13 years ago, 6 minutes later, 8 hours after the original post[^] [v] #395,103
@395,096 (Killer Lettuce !!iNo3FkiZx)
Very interesting, have you researched any other matriarchal societies?
Very interesting, have you researched any other matriarchal societies?
Killer Lettuce !!iNo3FkiZx replied with this 13 years ago, 11 minutes later, 8 hours after the original post[^] [v] #395,111
Anonymous C replied with this 13 years ago, 5 minutes later, 8 hours after the original post[^] [v] #395,114
Anonymous A (OP) replied with this 13 years ago, 23 minutes later, 8 hours after the original post[^] [v] #395,119
What happened here?
Anonymous J joined in and replied with this 13 years ago, 5 minutes later, 8 hours after the original post[^] [v] #395,125
@previous (A)
> What happened here?
An honest and interesting discussion that didn't devolve into name calling and arguing about semantics. Weird, I know. Enjoy opposite day while it lasts.
> What happened here?
An honest and interesting discussion that didn't devolve into name calling and arguing about semantics. Weird, I know. Enjoy opposite day while it lasts.
buspup !!x+kkCmnF4 replied with this 13 years ago, 5 minutes later, 8 hours after the original post[^] [v] #395,133
Catherine !TGirlYJKXM joined in and replied with this 13 years ago, 9 hours later, 18 hours after the original post[^] [v] #395,219
Didn't someone here proclaim that transwomen have tight vaginae?