Topic: Breaking News NASA Lost in Space not a joke
Syntax started this discussion 14 years ago #23,933
http://www.mercurynews.com/news/ci_22129121/expert-panel-nasa-seems-lost-space-needs-goal"NASA, the agency that epitomized the "Right Stuff," seems lost in space and doesn't have a clear sense of where it is going, an independent panel of science and engineering experts said in a stinging report Wednesday.
The one place the White House wants to send astronauts —an asteroid—doesn't seem to be getting the engines firing at NASA, they said.
"More than two years after the president announced the interim goal of sending humans to an asteroid by 2025, there has been little effort to initiate such a mission," said the report by a panel of the distinguished National Academy of Sciences.
In another withering passage, the panel said NASA's mission and vision statements are so vague and "generic" that they "could apply to almost any government research and development agency, omitting even the words 'aeronautics' or 'space.'"
The report doesn't blame the space agency; it faults President Barack Obama, Congress and the nation for not giving NASA better direction.
The space shuttles were retired in 2011 and are now museum pieces. Few people are paying attention to the International Space Station, and American astronauts have to rely on Russian spaceships to get there and back. Meanwhile, rocket-building is being outsourced to private companies, and a commercial venture plans to send people to the moon by the end of the decade.
Academy panel member Bob Crippen, a retired NASA manager and astronaut who piloted the first space shuttle mission, said he has never seen the space agency so adrift. He said that includes the decade between the end of the Apollo moon landings in the early 1970s and the beginning of the shuttle program.
"I think people (at NASA) want to be focused a little more and know where they are going," Crippen told The Associated Press.
NASA spokesman David Weaver defended the agency, saying in an emailed statement that it has clear and challenging goals. He listed several projects, including continued use of the International Space Station and efforts to develop a heavy-duty rocket and crew capsule capable of taking astronauts into deep space.
White House spokesman Matt Lehrich said he had nothing to add beyond NASA's comments.
Wednesday's report came the same day astronaut Scott Kelly, brother-in-law to former Rep. Gabrielle Giffords, talked about the difficulties of spending a U.S. record-breaking year in orbit aboard the space station starting in 2015. On Tuesday, just ahead of the report, NASA announced plans for a new Mars rover in 2020 in a sequel to the successful Curiosity mission.
John Logsdon, a space policy expert who advised the Obama campaign in 2008, said the panel's report, which is more strongly worded than usual for the academy, "rather fairly points its fingers at the White House."
"There's a general sense of disappointment that the administration has not been more bold and visionary in setting out a path for the program," said Logsdon, who was not on the panel.
Obama told the space agency in 2010 to plan to send astronauts to an asteroid by 2025 as a training ground for an eventual Mars landing. But the 80-page panel report and its authors said there is little support for that idea within NASA and the international space community.
The agency hasn't done much to determine an asteroid target, and its strategic plan avoids mention of an asteroid mission, the report said. Also, panel members said NASA hasn't allocated much money for it.
Crippen said an asteroid mission just doesn't make sense technically or politically and may just be too tough.
"I hate to use the word credible, but people don't buy it," said academy panel member Marcia Smith, president of Space and Technology Policy Group. "They don't feel that the asteroid mission is the right one."
The reason people aren't buying it is that they don't see money budgeted for it and don't see the choice of target, said panel chairman Albert Carnesale, former chancellor of the University of California, Los Angeles. Inside NASA, "people were wondering: What are we doing to actually accomplish this?" Carnesale said at a news conference.
After the 2003 shuttle Columbia accident, the independent board investigating what wrong said NASA needed a bigger long-term plan for human exploration. Then-President George W. Bush announced that the shuttle would be retired and that NASA's new goal would be to return astronauts to the moon with a permanent base there as a stepping stone to Mars.
When Obama took office, he appointed an outside committee that said the moon plan wasn't workable. The committee offered several options, including an asteroid mission as a possible stepping stone to Mars. Obama chose that path.
Syracuse University public policy professor W. Henry Lambright, who wasn't part of the latest study but has written about space policy, said Obama has not sold NASA, Congress or the country on his plan.
"I really think it's Obama's fault," Lambright said. NASA "is suffering from benign neglect."
American University policy professor Howard McCurdy, who also wasn't on the panel, said he sees the problem more as a lack of money than a lack of goals.
The report said NASA does not have enough money for its too many projects and has difficulty managing its 10 centers efficiently.
In his statement, NASA's Weaver said: "We're fully utilizing the International Space Station; developing a heavy-lift rocket and multi-purpose crew vehicle capable of taking American astronauts into deep space; facilitating development of commercial capabilities for cargo and crew transport to low Earth orbit; expanding our technological capabilities for the human and robotic missions of today and tomorrow; pursuing a robust portfolio of science missions such as the James Webb Space Telescope; developing faster and cleaner aircraft and inspiring the next generation of exploration leaders."
Smith said that statement itself shows the problem: "If it takes you that many phrases to explain it, then you do not have a crisp, clear strategic vision."
ashe joined in and replied with this 14 years ago, 20 minutes later[^] [v] #372,521
> Wednesday's report came the same day astronaut Scott Kelly, brother-in-law to former Rep. Gabrielle Giffords, talked about the difficulties of spending a U.S. record-breaking year in orbit aboard the space station starting in 2015. On Tuesday, just ahead of the report, NASA announced plans for a new Mars rover in 2020 in a sequel to the successful Curiosity mission.
I was reading today about mars one and if that happens as planned then only a few years after that rover will there be a settlement on Mars
http://mars-one.com/en/
I was reading today about mars one and if that happens as planned then only a few years after that rover will there be a settlement on Mars
http://mars-one.com/en/
Syntax (OP) replied with this 14 years ago, 1 hour later, 1 hour after the original post[^] [v] #372,549
@previous (ashe)
Thanks for the link. Subject was on NPR the other day and I said to self er not so sure this makes a lot of sense. I am not against a colony on another planet just not thrilled with the Little I know about Mars'
I have done so much re Satellites LEO's GEO's MEO's and a fraction a very small fraction of my tyme with anything that moved beyond Earth's Geo orbit. I worked on a short term project in emergency mode to get a space craft to the moon. Learned enough on that short gig that said Space craft work is not going to be in my house of cards. Engineers are type cast exactly the same way Attorneys are. You apply for a job and they find a hole and force you to fit in for the rest of your life. So called expert on some tiny minutia of a project. I have a friend who is a knock out gorgeous model and worked her way through school doing modeling. As a space craft engineer she specializes in exotic glues and has invented a few herself. She whines about no excitement with the work even when her glue is in a lot of places on Rover.
That one tiny project I did. was for the inventor of the First GEO Satellites. Of course the concept is Arthur C. Clarke's. Lots I could say about that short tyme but I was working on one hell of a neat design to stop base commanders or Nuke commanders from taking over control of Nukes mounted on missiles (Minute Man in silos Tridents in subs). I never had anything to do with the missiles themselves only the Anti Fire control to prevent wacko Generals for going ape shit. That was at the time more exciting then a tiny teeny part of a space craft.
Hey will share a story someone will pick up on ELSEWHERE since a few are now reposting outside chans. I got into Electronics via a Ham Radio and R/C remote control plane hobby. So came a time when I decided to bounce signals off the moon. Not really that hard to do but very hard to make it work on a regular basis.
So a lesson learned. My first attempts were the best n most successful. The more money and time and new designs - each ended up less successful then before - It never made sense to me at all.
So a bunch of years later when prepping to put up my first Globalstars, I had unlimited access to a bank of big Satellite dishes with banks of massive Megawatts. I could blast the moon from 5 places on Earth all about the same time and of course I just had to do it. Then it dawned on my why over achieving as a kiddlet failed.
To them who will steal this good luck understanding where I went wrong with more better designs.
Thanks for the link. Subject was on NPR the other day and I said to self er not so sure this makes a lot of sense. I am not against a colony on another planet just not thrilled with the Little I know about Mars'
I have done so much re Satellites LEO's GEO's MEO's and a fraction a very small fraction of my tyme with anything that moved beyond Earth's Geo orbit. I worked on a short term project in emergency mode to get a space craft to the moon. Learned enough on that short gig that said Space craft work is not going to be in my house of cards. Engineers are type cast exactly the same way Attorneys are. You apply for a job and they find a hole and force you to fit in for the rest of your life. So called expert on some tiny minutia of a project. I have a friend who is a knock out gorgeous model and worked her way through school doing modeling. As a space craft engineer she specializes in exotic glues and has invented a few herself. She whines about no excitement with the work even when her glue is in a lot of places on Rover.
That one tiny project I did. was for the inventor of the First GEO Satellites. Of course the concept is Arthur C. Clarke's. Lots I could say about that short tyme but I was working on one hell of a neat design to stop base commanders or Nuke commanders from taking over control of Nukes mounted on missiles (Minute Man in silos Tridents in subs). I never had anything to do with the missiles themselves only the Anti Fire control to prevent wacko Generals for going ape shit. That was at the time more exciting then a tiny teeny part of a space craft.
Hey will share a story someone will pick up on ELSEWHERE since a few are now reposting outside chans. I got into Electronics via a Ham Radio and R/C remote control plane hobby. So came a time when I decided to bounce signals off the moon. Not really that hard to do but very hard to make it work on a regular basis.
So a lesson learned. My first attempts were the best n most successful. The more money and time and new designs - each ended up less successful then before - It never made sense to me at all.
So a bunch of years later when prepping to put up my first Globalstars, I had unlimited access to a bank of big Satellite dishes with banks of massive Megawatts. I could blast the moon from 5 places on Earth all about the same time and of course I just had to do it. Then it dawned on my why over achieving as a kiddlet failed.
To them who will steal this good luck understanding where I went wrong with more better designs.
ashe replied with this 14 years ago, 3 hours later, 5 hours after the original post[^] [v] #372,608
@previous (Syntax)
It sounds like they have thought about how the colonists will set up and survive on mars and that there will not be any social problems, but i have not seen anything on how they will deal with the interstellar radiation they will be exposed to on the 7 month journey there
I might email and ask them
wait no i just did not read properly:
> Astronauts who are in space are exposed to more radiation than people on Earth. Earth's magnetic field and atmosphere significantly reduce the amount of radiation that makes it through to the surface of the planet. En route to Mars, however, our astronauts won't have this protection.
> For this reason, we need to provide protection to the astronauts, by shielding them. They will receive general protection from the structure of the Mars Transit Habitat during space flight. The Transit Habitat will also contain a dedicated radiation shelter, which will protect the astronauts with much more shielding than the habitat. >The astronauts can also sleep in the radiation shelter.
> A major source of radiation exposure en route to Mars is caused by Solar Particle Events (SPEs). During a SPE, the sun ejects very large quantities of energetic particles which, in the absence of proper shielding, can lead to acute radiation poisoning. The astronauts should expect, on average, one SPE every two months [US >dept. of commerce reference], meaning an expected total of three or four during their 7 month trip. Not all SPE's are large enough to be dangerous. Large Events generally occur only once or twice every solar cycle, which has a period of about 11 years [NASA JSC reference].
> To minimize exposure, the crew would be restricted to a radiation shelter during the most intense phase of an SPE. However, these highly intense phases usually only last for a few hours, meaning that comfort in the shelter is not a huge priority, and relatively low-volume radiation shelters are feasible [NASA JSC reference].
> Considering the largest event measured to date, in August 1972, at least 20 g/cm2 of shielding would be required to remain below the 30-day limit, [ESA reference (PDF)] [NASA JSC reference]. The Mars One Transit Habitat radiation shelter will have at least 20 g/cm2 of shielding.
It sounds like they have thought about how the colonists will set up and survive on mars and that there will not be any social problems, but i have not seen anything on how they will deal with the interstellar radiation they will be exposed to on the 7 month journey there
I might email and ask them
wait no i just did not read properly:
> Astronauts who are in space are exposed to more radiation than people on Earth. Earth's magnetic field and atmosphere significantly reduce the amount of radiation that makes it through to the surface of the planet. En route to Mars, however, our astronauts won't have this protection.
> For this reason, we need to provide protection to the astronauts, by shielding them. They will receive general protection from the structure of the Mars Transit Habitat during space flight. The Transit Habitat will also contain a dedicated radiation shelter, which will protect the astronauts with much more shielding than the habitat. >The astronauts can also sleep in the radiation shelter.
> A major source of radiation exposure en route to Mars is caused by Solar Particle Events (SPEs). During a SPE, the sun ejects very large quantities of energetic particles which, in the absence of proper shielding, can lead to acute radiation poisoning. The astronauts should expect, on average, one SPE every two months [US >dept. of commerce reference], meaning an expected total of three or four during their 7 month trip. Not all SPE's are large enough to be dangerous. Large Events generally occur only once or twice every solar cycle, which has a period of about 11 years [NASA JSC reference].
> To minimize exposure, the crew would be restricted to a radiation shelter during the most intense phase of an SPE. However, these highly intense phases usually only last for a few hours, meaning that comfort in the shelter is not a huge priority, and relatively low-volume radiation shelters are feasible [NASA JSC reference].
> Considering the largest event measured to date, in August 1972, at least 20 g/cm2 of shielding would be required to remain below the 30-day limit, [ESA reference (PDF)] [NASA JSC reference]. The Mars One Transit Habitat radiation shelter will have at least 20 g/cm2 of shielding.
(Edited 2 minutes later.)
Syntax (OP) replied with this 14 years ago, 26 minutes later, 5 hours after the original post[^] [v] #372,612
@previous (ashe)
I could and should write a book about space radiation. My living my wallet my life currently is being run by space radiation. UnGodly Gamma Rays - high energy atomic particles of every sort shape and must have some color we cannot see with nakkid eyes. Add Gamma to Alpha particles.. Beta particles ..Cosmic rays & X-rays X-rays and more X-rays. Neutrons CRASHING into my Satellites with wild abandon and HORRID electromagnetic bursts from Solar Flares. Blasts of Microwave RF and probably particles we cannot isolate nor detect.
Internal parts are pre degraded on ground to make them less sensitive to Gamma and X-rays. Stuff even grows across circuit traces because of Ion Migration. Plastics degrade over time and outgas
Its a mean fucking mean world up there if one is all Electronic and if one were Human, I cannot imagine long term health.
I could and should write a book about space radiation. My living my wallet my life currently is being run by space radiation. UnGodly Gamma Rays - high energy atomic particles of every sort shape and must have some color we cannot see with nakkid eyes. Add Gamma to Alpha particles.. Beta particles ..Cosmic rays & X-rays X-rays and more X-rays. Neutrons CRASHING into my Satellites with wild abandon and HORRID electromagnetic bursts from Solar Flares. Blasts of Microwave RF and probably particles we cannot isolate nor detect.
Internal parts are pre degraded on ground to make them less sensitive to Gamma and X-rays. Stuff even grows across circuit traces because of Ion Migration. Plastics degrade over time and outgas
Its a mean fucking mean world up there if one is all Electronic and if one were Human, I cannot imagine long term health.