Topic: Josef Stalin's daughter Svetlana dead at 85
cccuuunnttt !CaTLdYmooc started this discussion 15 years ago #14,706
NY Times has an interesting obituary:http://www.nytimes.com/2011/11/29/world/europe/stalins-daughter-dies-at-85.html
Her three successive names were signposts on a twisted, bewildering road that took her from Stalin’s Kremlin, where she was the “little princess,†to the West in a celebrated defection, then back to the Soviet Union in a puzzling homecoming, and finally to decades of obscurity, wandering and poverty.
At her birth, on Feb. 28, 1926, she was named Svetlana Stalina, the only daughter and last surviving child of the brutal Soviet tyrant Josef Stalin. After he died in 1953, she took her mother’s last name, Alliluyeva. In 1970, after her defection and an American marriage, she became and remained Lana Peters.
Ms. Peters died of colon cancer on Nov. 22 in Richland County, Wis., the county’s corporation counsel, Benjamin Southwick, said on Monday. She was 85.
At her birth, on Feb. 28, 1926, she was named Svetlana Stalina, the only daughter and last surviving child of the brutal Soviet tyrant Josef Stalin. After he died in 1953, she took her mother’s last name, Alliluyeva. In 1970, after her defection and an American marriage, she became and remained Lana Peters.
Ms. Peters died of colon cancer on Nov. 22 in Richland County, Wis., the county’s corporation counsel, Benjamin Southwick, said on Monday. She was 85.
Walter Calton !0VegJ9Jl.Q joined in and replied with this 15 years ago, 1 minute later[^] [v] #259,374
I wonder how it feels to be the daughter of a man of pure evil.
Anonymous C joined in and replied with this 15 years ago, 4 minutes later, 5 minutes after the original post[^] [v] #259,376
Anonymous D joined in and replied with this 15 years ago, 57 seconds later, 6 minutes after the original post[^] [v] #259,377
@259,374 (Walter Calton !0VegJ9Jl.Q)
Read a history book before you make this stupid statement. Read about the statistics that Solzhenitsyn and Nikita Krushev (the Soviet leader after Stalin's death, assuming you don't already know that) invented on the spot to discredit the so-called cult-of-Stalin that had arisen. This is very well documented, if you have the desire to get your knowledge from actual sources rather than half-arsed, lazy Western journalism.
I'm aware that this is not a board for the genuine exchange of ideas, and I'm prepared for the inevitable reply of "boners, lol, u mad bro" etc. But anyway, just wanted to leave this here in the hope it may encourage you to find information for yourself. That's all, I'm not gonna participate in this thread anymore because I can predict what it will become.
Read a history book before you make this stupid statement. Read about the statistics that Solzhenitsyn and Nikita Krushev (the Soviet leader after Stalin's death, assuming you don't already know that) invented on the spot to discredit the so-called cult-of-Stalin that had arisen. This is very well documented, if you have the desire to get your knowledge from actual sources rather than half-arsed, lazy Western journalism.
I'm aware that this is not a board for the genuine exchange of ideas, and I'm prepared for the inevitable reply of "boners, lol, u mad bro" etc. But anyway, just wanted to leave this here in the hope it may encourage you to find information for yourself. That's all, I'm not gonna participate in this thread anymore because I can predict what it will become.
Killer Lettuce !!iNo3FkiZx joined in and replied with this 15 years ago, 2 minutes later, 9 minutes after the original post[^] [v] #259,378
@259,376 (C)
He relentlessly purged his own people, had a brutal secret police and formed a country-wide cult of personality, so his actions were just a tad evil.
He relentlessly purged his own people, had a brutal secret police and formed a country-wide cult of personality, so his actions were just a tad evil.
Anonymous F joined in and replied with this 15 years ago, 4 seconds later, 9 minutes after the original post[^] [v] #259,379
Walter Calton !0VegJ9Jl.Q replied with this 15 years ago, 1 minute later, 10 minutes after the original post[^] [v] #259,380
@259,376 (C)
Ask the Kulaks, the Ukrayintsi and the Polaks how they feel about their homelands under the genocidal rule of the great tyrant.
Ask the Kulaks, the Ukrayintsi and the Polaks how they feel about their homelands under the genocidal rule of the great tyrant.
Anonymous D replied with this 15 years ago, 4 minutes later, 14 minutes after the original post[^] [v] #259,383
@259,378 (Killer Lettuce !!iNo3FkiZx)
Sources please. Other than those written by Nikita Krushev.
Think about this fact for a moment - from 1922 to 1939 (from the Civil War up to WW2 in other words) the Russian population increased by 22 million (independent statistic from Alan Bullock, Britain's greatest post-war historian on the Soviet Union and Nazi Germany, along with countless other unbiased sources). And yet Khrushev's statistics would have us believe that Stalin butchered 40 million...from a population that was already only 90 million in 1922!! Care to explain this?
And again, if you actually want to discuss this and want me to stick around, provide actual sources, and not just a baseless opinion culled from a tabloid newspaper.
If you don't want to discuss it, then just start posting "lol" and "u mad" etc and save us some time.
Sources please. Other than those written by Nikita Krushev.
Think about this fact for a moment - from 1922 to 1939 (from the Civil War up to WW2 in other words) the Russian population increased by 22 million (independent statistic from Alan Bullock, Britain's greatest post-war historian on the Soviet Union and Nazi Germany, along with countless other unbiased sources). And yet Khrushev's statistics would have us believe that Stalin butchered 40 million...from a population that was already only 90 million in 1922!! Care to explain this?
And again, if you actually want to discuss this and want me to stick around, provide actual sources, and not just a baseless opinion culled from a tabloid newspaper.
If you don't want to discuss it, then just start posting "lol" and "u mad" etc and save us some time.
Ks !KansasxqvM joined in and replied with this 15 years ago, 23 seconds later, 15 minutes after the original post[^] [v] #259,384
@259,377 (D)> I'm not gonna participate in this thread anymore
:(
Not all of us are history expert experts. Everything I've ever read, seen, or heard has pretty much portrayed Stalin as a villain...
Killer Lettuce !!iNo3FkiZx replied with this 15 years ago, 21 seconds later, 15 minutes after the original post[^] [v] #259,385
@259,377 (D)
The man was ruthless though, and definitely driven by a desire for power. His actions in the battle for party leadership exemplify this, he pretty much backstabbed everyone and covered up Lenin's writings calling for him to never be made leader.
Given that, it's not hard to imagine him committing genocide simply to gain even more power.
Besides that he also famously said "One death is a tradgedy, a million deaths is a statistic".
Also, it's spelt Khrushchev. I don't blame you though, it's an awkward name.
The man was ruthless though, and definitely driven by a desire for power. His actions in the battle for party leadership exemplify this, he pretty much backstabbed everyone and covered up Lenin's writings calling for him to never be made leader.
Given that, it's not hard to imagine him committing genocide simply to gain even more power.
Besides that he also famously said "One death is a tradgedy, a million deaths is a statistic".
Also, it's spelt Khrushchev. I don't blame you though, it's an awkward name.
(Edited 1 minute later.)
Anonymous D replied with this 15 years ago, 55 seconds later, 16 minutes after the original post[^] [v] #259,387
@259,380 (Walter Calton !0VegJ9Jl.Q)
I can and do ask them, I have lived here for 12 years. "Ask the Polaks"...this is a bizarre statement, I'm not sure you fully understand what you're talking about. You mean the Polaks who were liberated by Stalin himself from the Nazis???
I can and do ask them, I have lived here for 12 years. "Ask the Polaks"...this is a bizarre statement, I'm not sure you fully understand what you're talking about. You mean the Polaks who were liberated by Stalin himself from the Nazis???
Walter Calton !0VegJ9Jl.Q replied with this 15 years ago, 0 seconds later, 16 minutes after the original post[^] [v] #259,388
@259,377 (D)
Yeah... Let's just completely disregard the genocide of millions of innocent Ukrainians by forced famine under Soviet rule.
Yeah... Let's just completely disregard the genocide of millions of innocent Ukrainians by forced famine under Soviet rule.
Anonymous D replied with this 15 years ago, 25 seconds later, 16 minutes after the original post[^] [v] #259,390
Anonymous D double-posted this 15 years ago, 1 minute later, 18 minutes after the original post[^] [v] #259,391
@259,388 (Walter Calton !0VegJ9Jl.Q)
"...innocent Ukrainians". Stop writing in this stupid tabloid, amateurish, emotive way. Provide SOURCES and EVIDENCE for what you are saying.
"...innocent Ukrainians". Stop writing in this stupid tabloid, amateurish, emotive way. Provide SOURCES and EVIDENCE for what you are saying.
Walter Calton !0VegJ9Jl.Q replied with this 15 years ago, 47 seconds later, 18 minutes after the original post[^] [v] #259,393
@259,387 (D)> You mean the Polaks who were liberated by Stalin himself from the Nazis???
I wouldn't exactly call the forceful transition from one form of vicious totalitarianism to another "liberation", you fucking Antifa cretin.
Killer Lettuce !!iNo3FkiZx replied with this 15 years ago, 38 seconds later, 19 minutes after the original post[^] [v] #259,394
@259,383 (D)
Tuen down the smug, plz. :)
Stalin was also encouraging a baby boom so that he could get more soldiers. I believe that he offered incentives for children alingside his family reforms.
Tuen down the smug, plz. :)
Stalin was also encouraging a baby boom so that he could get more soldiers. I believe that he offered incentives for children alingside his family reforms.
(Edited 47 seconds later.)
Walter Calton !0VegJ9Jl.Q replied with this 15 years ago, 25 seconds later, 19 minutes after the original post[^] [v] #259,395
Walter Calton !0VegJ9Jl.Q double-posted this 15 years ago, 1 minute later, 21 minutes after the original post[^] [v] #259,397
@259,394 (Killer Lettuce !!iNo3FkiZx)
> expecting the antifa-scum to not be so smug in the way they express their flawed views
> expecting the antifa-scum to not be so smug in the way they express their flawed views
Killer Lettuce !!iNo3FkiZx replied with this 15 years ago, 2 minutes later, 23 minutes after the original post[^] [v] #259,401
Relevant Wikipedia article:
http://en.m.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Great_Purge&mobileaction=view_normal_site
@259,384 (Ks !KansasxqvM)
Yeah, he was a villain. In a nutshell, he wanted power and didn't give a fuck who he had to tread on to get it.
http://en.m.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Great_Purge&mobileaction=view_normal_site
@259,384 (Ks !KansasxqvM)
Yeah, he was a villain. In a nutshell, he wanted power and didn't give a fuck who he had to tread on to get it.
Anonymous D replied with this 15 years ago, 2 seconds later, 23 minutes after the original post[^] [v] #259,402
@259,390 (D)
"Also, it's spelt Khrushchev. I don't blame you though, it's an awkward name." - no, it isn't. I'm a native speaker of Russian, my friend. Regardless of how you may like to transliterate it, никита хрущев does not take the 'shch' sound. We may disagree about historiography, but I am quite sure that I am the authority here on Russian pronunciation.
"Also, it's spelt Khrushchev. I don't blame you though, it's an awkward name." - no, it isn't. I'm a native speaker of Russian, my friend. Regardless of how you may like to transliterate it, никита хрущев does not take the 'shch' sound. We may disagree about historiography, but I am quite sure that I am the authority here on Russian pronunciation.
floorboard !hbZVTk6JYc joined in and replied with this 15 years ago, 2 minutes later, 25 minutes after the original post[^] [v] #259,404
Anonymous D replied with this 15 years ago, 21 seconds later, 25 minutes after the original post[^] [v] #259,405
Ah, ok...out come the "you fucking Commie..." insults. Ok, I think this conversation is over, you've revealed the extent of debate you're capable of. Namely: 1) wild and groundless statements, 2) Wikipedia articles (dear lord!), and 3) when that fails, swearing and insults.
Do svidanya, you dumb fucking mug.
Do svidanya, you dumb fucking mug.
Killer Lettuce !!iNo3FkiZx replied with this 15 years ago, 7 seconds later, 25 minutes after the original post[^] [v] #259,406
cccuuunnttt !CaTLdYmooc (OP) replied with this 15 years ago, 1 minute later, 27 minutes after the original post[^] [v] #259,408
floorboard !hbZVTk6JYc replied with this 15 years ago, 46 seconds later, 28 minutes after the original post[^] [v] #259,410
@259,405 (D)
Are you saying that stalin was a good guy? I'm an american, I barely know what a stalin is. I know that khrushchev was a bad guy, what with the shoe on the podium and all, but I thought stalin was, like, the grandaddy gangster over there. But that's not right? He was, what, like a local hero or something?
Are you saying that stalin was a good guy? I'm an american, I barely know what a stalin is. I know that khrushchev was a bad guy, what with the shoe on the podium and all, but I thought stalin was, like, the grandaddy gangster over there. But that's not right? He was, what, like a local hero or something?
Killer Lettuce !!iNo3FkiZx replied with this 15 years ago, 48 seconds later, 28 minutes after the original post[^] [v] #259,413
@259,405 (D)
A Wikipedia article offering extensive coverage on a series if purges Stalin carried out, purges you claimed that were wildly exaggerated.
Why not refute the article if it's so obviously wrong?
A Wikipedia article offering extensive coverage on a series if purges Stalin carried out, purges you claimed that were wildly exaggerated.
Why not refute the article if it's so obviously wrong?
floorboard !hbZVTk6JYc replied with this 15 years ago, 1 minute later, 30 minutes after the original post[^] [v] #259,415
Killer Lettuce !!iNo3FkiZx replied with this 15 years ago, 44 seconds later, 31 minutes after the original post[^] [v] #259,418
@259,410 (floorboard !hbZVTk6JYc)
Nah, he was a douche.
He also liked drawing naked men. Take from that what you will.
Nah, he was a douche.
He also liked drawing naked men. Take from that what you will.
floorboard !hbZVTk6JYc replied with this 15 years ago, 1 minute later, 32 minutes after the original post[^] [v] #259,422
@previous (Killer Lettuce !!iNo3FkiZx)
see, that's what I thought they taught us non-brainwashed westerners.
see, that's what I thought they taught us non-brainwashed westerners.
Anonymous D replied with this 15 years ago, 2 minutes later, 35 minutes after the original post[^] [v] #259,426
@259,410 (floorboard !hbZVTk6JYc)
No, I'm absolutely not saying he was a "good guy" (what the heck does that mean in this context? Was Napolean a "good guy"? Was Ghenghis Khan?? Nobody refutes that they killed more, but why are they not on the pantheon of "Great Butchers of Human History?" - the answer lies in post-1953 European and American politics, but that's another discussion). Stalin was on a very lonely and untouchable peak, especially after his wife killed himself. And he surely did monstrous acts. BUT! I think that nobody here will despute that were it not for him, all of Europe would be speaking German now. Because of the Russian army, to be sure, but mainly because of 'Stalin's war'. He, more than any other person, was responsible for winning the war. And under his rule, Russia moved from a peasant nation (which didn't even have a working class) to the nation it is today. yes, it was a painful and brutal transition. he was not an angel. But he WAS a great leader. And it pains me to see the way that he is portrayed, whereas out western leaders today (who murder thousands) go under the banner of freedom fighters.
Killer Lettuce, call me what you want, but I'm sorry for calling you what I did. I don't like to offend people and to leave things on a stupid insult. Just, this subject touches me. I may be wrong about it, but it's my opinion. Sorry again.
No, I'm absolutely not saying he was a "good guy" (what the heck does that mean in this context? Was Napolean a "good guy"? Was Ghenghis Khan?? Nobody refutes that they killed more, but why are they not on the pantheon of "Great Butchers of Human History?" - the answer lies in post-1953 European and American politics, but that's another discussion). Stalin was on a very lonely and untouchable peak, especially after his wife killed himself. And he surely did monstrous acts. BUT! I think that nobody here will despute that were it not for him, all of Europe would be speaking German now. Because of the Russian army, to be sure, but mainly because of 'Stalin's war'. He, more than any other person, was responsible for winning the war. And under his rule, Russia moved from a peasant nation (which didn't even have a working class) to the nation it is today. yes, it was a painful and brutal transition. he was not an angel. But he WAS a great leader. And it pains me to see the way that he is portrayed, whereas out western leaders today (who murder thousands) go under the banner of freedom fighters.
Killer Lettuce, call me what you want, but I'm sorry for calling you what I did. I don't like to offend people and to leave things on a stupid insult. Just, this subject touches me. I may be wrong about it, but it's my opinion. Sorry again.
Anonymous D double-posted this 15 years ago, 3 minutes later, 38 minutes after the original post[^] [v] #259,428
His wife killed "herself", I meant to say. The man had issues, but not of that kind.
floorboard !hbZVTk6JYc replied with this 15 years ago, 3 minutes later, 41 minutes after the original post[^] [v] #259,432
@259,426 (D)
I think the disconnect is in the western idea of human-rights abuses by the leaders against their own people. Sure we view war as necessarily barbaric, but to discount human suffering and the liberties of individuals to the extent that Stalin allowed is, by our standards, morally reprehensible. It is different though, when talking casualties of war, many here feel a righteousness about it and don't view it in the same perspective as doing it to your own people. Whether or not that is a valid viewpoint is a different discussion. But the perception of stalin here is one of, yes, a great leader, but quite a brutal and tyrannical sort.
and we hate motherfucking tyrants
I think the disconnect is in the western idea of human-rights abuses by the leaders against their own people. Sure we view war as necessarily barbaric, but to discount human suffering and the liberties of individuals to the extent that Stalin allowed is, by our standards, morally reprehensible. It is different though, when talking casualties of war, many here feel a righteousness about it and don't view it in the same perspective as doing it to your own people. Whether or not that is a valid viewpoint is a different discussion. But the perception of stalin here is one of, yes, a great leader, but quite a brutal and tyrannical sort.
and we hate motherfucking tyrants
Killer Lettuce !!iNo3FkiZx replied with this 15 years ago, 1 minute later, 43 minutes after the original post[^] [v] #259,434
@259,426 (D)
It's fine, no need to apologise. You're entitled to your view of the guy.
I don't dispute that the guy was a great leader though. His army arguably won world war 2 for us and he did have the entire country behind him, even if he achieved it by doing horrible things.
@259,428 (D)
Yeah, towards the end she didn't agree with what he was doing at all. Apparently she was sighted at a protest a few days before she killed herself.
It's fine, no need to apologise. You're entitled to your view of the guy.
I don't dispute that the guy was a great leader though. His army arguably won world war 2 for us and he did have the entire country behind him, even if he achieved it by doing horrible things.
@259,428 (D)
Yeah, towards the end she didn't agree with what he was doing at all. Apparently she was sighted at a protest a few days before she killed herself.
(Edited 56 seconds later.)
Anonymous D replied with this 15 years ago, 1 minute later, 44 minutes after the original post[^] [v] #259,435
@259,422 (floorboard !hbZVTk6JYc)
And floorboard, I'm not trying to start yet another argument, but when you begin one sentence with "I don't really know anything about this, but I was taught..." and then begin another with the selfsatisfied proclamation that "You see, I knew it was only those brain-washed commies!" you need to be a little careful. I am NOT saying that I am right. But please, learn about these issues before you speak about them. These things matter. I know that, as I said, these forums are not serious....but this stuff is important. Look at what is happening to the world political map today and tie it into what Hitler and Stalin did 60 years ago. You may one day be directly affected by it, and it won't help you to just blindly believe what you hear on FOX News and start spouting comfortably patriotic nonsense like: "You see! Everyone else is brain-washed! I knew that thing my 3rd grade teacher told me was right! Go U-S-A! Land of the free!"
And floorboard, I'm not trying to start yet another argument, but when you begin one sentence with "I don't really know anything about this, but I was taught..." and then begin another with the selfsatisfied proclamation that "You see, I knew it was only those brain-washed commies!" you need to be a little careful. I am NOT saying that I am right. But please, learn about these issues before you speak about them. These things matter. I know that, as I said, these forums are not serious....but this stuff is important. Look at what is happening to the world political map today and tie it into what Hitler and Stalin did 60 years ago. You may one day be directly affected by it, and it won't help you to just blindly believe what you hear on FOX News and start spouting comfortably patriotic nonsense like: "You see! Everyone else is brain-washed! I knew that thing my 3rd grade teacher told me was right! Go U-S-A! Land of the free!"
Anonymous D double-posted this 15 years ago, 5 minutes later, 49 minutes after the original post[^] [v] #259,438
@259,432 (floorboard !hbZVTk6JYc)
Precisely, you see. I do not know which country you are from Floorboard, but let me assume it is either America or Britain. You say that with fervent democratic gusto: "we hate motherfucking tyrants"...NO!!! What you mean is "we hate it when those motherfuckers are tyrannical...towards OURSELVES! Against other countries, you don't even bat an eyelid. Where was your righteous protestation against indiscriminate mass slaughter when America and Britain illegally invaded Iraq and Afghanistan? Am I correct in thinking that it doesn't matter if a leader is a tyrannical, power-hungry murderer...provided it is not against you?
Precisely, you see. I do not know which country you are from Floorboard, but let me assume it is either America or Britain. You say that with fervent democratic gusto: "we hate motherfucking tyrants"...NO!!! What you mean is "we hate it when those motherfuckers are tyrannical...towards OURSELVES! Against other countries, you don't even bat an eyelid. Where was your righteous protestation against indiscriminate mass slaughter when America and Britain illegally invaded Iraq and Afghanistan? Am I correct in thinking that it doesn't matter if a leader is a tyrannical, power-hungry murderer...provided it is not against you?
floorboard !hbZVTk6JYc replied with this 15 years ago, 16 minutes later, 1 hour after the original post[^] [v] #259,466
@previous (D)
That is precisely what i'm saying. As I said above, we see it differently when it's directed at us by our own leaders (that is unacceptable.) when it's directed at our "enemies" then it is perceived as being necessary (but unfortunate.) Like I said, that is a different argument all together whether or not that is a valid viewpoint. But, it is the viewpoint that lets people sleep at night. safely.
That is precisely what i'm saying. As I said above, we see it differently when it's directed at us by our own leaders (that is unacceptable.) when it's directed at our "enemies" then it is perceived as being necessary (but unfortunate.) Like I said, that is a different argument all together whether or not that is a valid viewpoint. But, it is the viewpoint that lets people sleep at night. safely.
(Edited 1 minute later.)
Anonymous D replied with this 15 years ago, 2 minutes later, 1 hour after the original post[^] [v] #259,470
Anonymous C replied with this 15 years ago, 4 hours later, 5 hours after the original post[^] [v] #259,556
@259,378 (Killer Lettuce !!iNo3FkiZx)
> cult of personality
Like in the song? I heard that Capitalism painted a very ugly picture of him.
> cult of personality
Like in the song? I heard that Capitalism painted a very ugly picture of him.
jump joined in and replied with this 15 years ago, 12 minutes later, 5 hours after the original post[^] [v] #259,557
@anonD
Most people don't realize their history classes are propoganda and can't be trusted.
Most people don't realize their history classes are propoganda and can't be trusted.
floorboard !hbZVTk6JYc replied with this 15 years ago, 19 minutes later, 5 hours after the original post[^] [v] #259,558
Svetlana is a pretty name though.
hamfist !!mZuNK1i+C joined in and replied with this 15 years ago, 1 hour later, 7 hours after the original post[^] [v] #259,559
Greatest generation