Topic: ITT: Birthright citizenship for children of illegal immigrants
Anonymous A started this discussion 15 years ago#1,412
Is birthright a real problem? Will ending it cause problems?
Is birthright citizenship moral to children of illegals?
Does birthright incentivize good or bad immigration behavior?
Is this what it means to be an american citizen?
"They come here to drop a child. It's called drop and leave. To have a child in America, they cross the border, they go to the emergency room, have a child, and that child is automatically an American citizen. That shouldn't be the case. That attracts people here for all the wrong reasons."
Broseph !!fxnDb+Ve4 joined in and replied with this 15 years ago, 14 minutes later[^][v]#27,370
I think the spirit of the law is that people who live here, as legal citizens, don't have to worry about the citizenship of their children. It shouldn't apply to people who are illegally living here to begin with and aren't even citizens themselves. 1) Because it goes against the spirit of the law. 2) Because it allows people to pick and choose which parts of the law apply to them. They can ignore laws regarding citizenship and legal migration, but they can use birthright laws to their advantage. When you break the law, certain laws and rights no longer apply to you. Prisoners do not have all the rights and privileges of normal law-abiding citizens. 3) As OP pointed out, it does cause a moral hazard where it gives illegal immigrants incentive to have kids here in order to anchor themselves to the United States. It's a bullshit loophole.
Now, with that being said, current immigration laws suck and need to change, and I think they need to make it easier for honest, hard-working people to live here legally, and then we wouldn't have so much illegal immigration, undocumented workers who don't pay taxes, human trafficking, and illegal labor. That's no reason to simply ignore the laws and allow these things to continue to happen, though.
(Edited 33 seconds later.)
Broseph !!fxnDb+Ve4 double-posted this 15 years ago, 6 minutes later, 21 minutes after the original post[^][v]#27,377
Also, I don't think ending birthright citizenship should be a problem, and they probably should end it. The law should simply be that if one of your parents is a U.S. citizen, then you are a U.S. citizen. This prevents any complications from babies being born overseas or in international waters and also closes the birthright citizenship loophole.
jump !VIfloDyEYo joined in and replied with this 15 years ago, 21 seconds later, 21 minutes after the original post[^][v]#27,379
It's tough. I think people who want to live here should start by following the rules. They are choosing to come here. They should follow the country's rules, regardless of how unfair they think it is.
I don't see a reason to change the law. Let their children stay if they can. They will have a SS# and can pay taxes. I don't give a fuck who their parents are.
I just hate people who think that entering the country illegally is their right. It's something that irritates me to no end.
jump !VIfloDyEYo double-posted this 15 years ago, 3 minutes later, 25 minutes after the original post[^][v]#27,381
@27,370 (Broseph !!fxnDb+Ve4)
The spirit of the law was for Chinese immigrants kids, I believe.
Broseph !!fxnDb+Ve4 replied with this 15 years ago, 20 seconds later, 25 minutes after the original post[^][v]#27,382
@27,379 (jump !VIfloDyEYo)
Here's another way to think of it. If someone commits a serious crime, and a reward is put out for their capture, should they get the reward for turning themselves in? No. It's the same thing with people who try to give birth here to use their kids to anchor themselves here. Yes, the law says that anyone born here is a citizen, but the law also says that you weren't even supposed to be here to begin with, so which takes precedence?
Broseph !!fxnDb+Ve4 double-posted this 15 years ago, 2 minutes later, 28 minutes after the original post[^][v]#27,384
@27,381 (jump !VIfloDyEYo)
Well, even if that's the case, times have changed. I bet the parents of Chinese immigrants didn't demand that their kids be taught in Chinese in schools. I think most of them busted their ass to learn English and assimilate. Sorry if that sounds hateful, because I know a lot of Hispanic immigrants do bust their asses, but the ones busting their asses are usually the ones doing it legally. I just hate the bad attitude of entitlement some people have.
jump !VIfloDyEYo replied with this 15 years ago, 11 minutes later, 39 minutes after the original post[^][v]#27,391
@previous (Broseph !!fxnDb+Ve4)
The situation with Chinese immigrants was completely different. I agree.
I do not support illegal immigrants in anyway. Kids, however, aren't at fault. If they were born here technically they are legal. It's different than their parents. Deport the parents, let them leave their kid with family or take the kid with them. The kid can come back whenever he wants though. I don't care it it's legal.
psychopath !PSYCHOhc32 joined in and replied with this 15 years ago, 2 hours later, 3 hours after the original post[^][v]#27,450
I for one welcome the Mexican immigrants. Just loosen up the citizenship requirements.
The Minion joined in and replied with this 15 years ago, 5 hours later, 8 hours after the original post[^][v]#27,685
Polite, reasoned, and nuanced discussion, on my Minichan?
It's more likely than you may think.
Born this Way !dLadyGAgAA joined in and replied with this 15 years ago, 11 minutes later, 9 hours after the original post[^][v]#27,691
@27,382 (Broseph !!fxnDb+Ve4)
I kind of want to agree with you, but the thing is once a child is born in the United States, you're not dealing with the rights of the parents but the rights of that child, and I don't think anybody should be denied their rights because of something their parents did. That is also illegal under the Constitution, I think. It should have no benefit for the parents, though.
Triptych !!DP4/G/5A6 joined in and replied with this 15 years ago, 31 minutes later, 9 hours after the original post[^][v]#27,722
The children should be allowed to stay. It's not their fault or their responsibility.
The parents, deport them if you want. However, if their kid is a US citizen and is living in the US, that gives them an ability to get a visa, no?
Anonymous I joined in and replied with this 15 years ago, 6 hours later, 15 hours after the original post[^][v]#28,204
Birthright citizenship doesn't even make sense to me. It's not hypocritical to support increased immigration AND tougher laws on illegal immigration.
The problem is that the irl immigration thread has been derailed with trolls posting THAT'S RACIST!
Anonymous J joined in and replied with this 15 years ago, 3 minutes later, 15 hours after the original post[^][v]#28,205
This is so fucking stupid. Open the fucking borders, stop being nationalistic fucks. If Americans want their jobs they can compete for them, if they are too fucking stupid and lazy to keep their jobs with immigrants competing, fire them. Competition means harder workers, more innovative products, and many other benefits.
Ph !5pM9NZR/l6 joined in and replied with this 15 years ago, 3 minutes later, 15 hours after the original post[^][v]#28,206
@previous (J)
This is someone completely missing the point.
Anonymous J replied with this 15 years ago, 1 minute later, 15 hours after the original post[^][v]#28,207
Ph !5pM9NZR/l6 replied with this 15 years ago, 3 minutes later, 15 hours after the original post[^][v]#28,208
@previous (J)
There is no competition. They are willing to do the work at wages below the legal minimum because they are not legally here and not documented. So employers can save money by hiring them. The ultimate problem is that they are allowed to make use of government programs like medicare, foodstamps, and can get free education for their children. They are also sending a large amount of the money they earn out of the country diminishing the economy. It has nothing to do with them out competing us for jobs.
(Edited 13 seconds later.)
Anonymous J replied with this 15 years ago, 10 minutes later, 16 hours after the original post[^][v]#28,218
> There is no competition. They are willing to do the work at wages below the legal minimum because they are not legally here and not documented.
I said open the boarders, I meant that in a legal sense. Anyone who wants to come in can, and can work legally. Continue to crack down on people not paying minimum wage.
> So employers can save money by hiring them.
Employers could hire legal citizens if these people were willing to work for less then minimum wage as well. Both are illegal. It's ridiculous to say an employer wouldn't pay less than minimum wage to a citizen as it's illegal, but they'd pay less to an illegal immigrant despite it being illegal. Being a citizen does not narrow your opportunities.
> The ultimate problem is that they are allowed to make use of government programs like medicare, foodstamps, and can get free education for their children. They are also sending a large amount of the money they earn out of the country diminishing the economy.
Immigrants who work for little money and send some home is nothing compared to companies that outsource jobs to other countries. As for them taking advantage of social programs, make them legal and have them pay taxes. I still don't see why an American kid deserves an education over a Mexican kid, but maybe that's just because I'm not racist?
(Edited 1 minute later.)
Ph !5pM9NZR/l6 replied with this 15 years ago, 16 minutes later, 16 hours after the original post[^][v]#28,237
> I said open the boarders, I meant that in a legal sense. Anyone who wants to come in can, and can work legally. Continue to crack down on people not paying minimum wage.
Were they forced to pay minimum wage they wouldn't hire nearly as many Mexican nationals. Why waste the time training someone that can barely speak your language when you can hire someone that will do the same job and need less training?
> Employers could hire legal citizens if these people were willing to work for less then minimum wage as well. Being a citizen does not narrow your opportunities.
It is illegal to hire someone under minimum wage. All payments to that employee would have to be cash under the table. If that employee makes a large purchase but claims to have no job each year on their taxes they will get audited. When that happens the employer would be caught and the employee would most likely be out of a job.
> Immigrants who work for little money and send some home is nothing compared to companies that outsource jobs to other countries. As for them taking advantage of social programs, make them legal and have them pay taxes. I still don't see why an American kid deserves an education over a Mexican kid, but maybe that's just because I'm not racist?
The one valid point you almost make then you sully it implying I am racist. It's true, cheaper labor in other countries has led to companies outsourcing available jobs. I'm not sure if you have read ANY of the posts in this thread, but a child born in the United States of America is recognized as an American citizen, so where you got the idea that I was attempting to say that children born of Mexican families don't deserve an education is beyond me.
Anonymous J replied with this 15 years ago, 15 minutes later, 16 hours after the original post[^][v]#28,262
> Were they forced to pay minimum wage they wouldn't hire nearly as many Mexican nationals. Why waste the time training someone that can barely speak your language when you can hire someone that will do the same job and need less training?
Yes, I am aware. I never said otherwise. > It is illegal to hire someone under minimum wage.
It's also illegal to hire illegal immigrants. > All payments to that employee would have to be cash under the table. If that employee makes a large purchase but claims to have no job each year on their taxes they will get audited. When that happens the employer would be caught and the employee would most likely be out of a job.
If a Mexican is caught without ID, and found to be illegal they can also ask who hired him. > > Immigrants who work for little money and send some home is nothing compared to companies that outsource jobs to other countries. As for them taking advantage of social programs, make them legal and have them pay taxes. I still don't see why an American kid deserves an education over a Mexican kid, but maybe that's just because I'm not racist? > The one valid point you almost make then you sully it implying I am racist. It's true, cheaper labor in other countries has led to companies outsourcing available jobs. I'm not sure if you have read ANY of the posts in this thread, but a child born in the United States of America is recognized as an American citizen, so where you got the idea that I was attempting to say that children born of Mexican families don't deserve an education is beyond me.
Complaining that we'd have to pay for their education, but not complaining about paying for American children's education makes it seem as if you think Americans deserve it more.
Ph !5pM9NZR/l6 replied with this 15 years ago, 14 minutes later, 16 hours after the original post[^][v]#28,279
@previous (J) > It's also illegal to hire illegal immigrants.
Correct, however illegal immigrants are less of a gamble in all honesty. They are not tracked by the government and would not have the possibility of being audited by the IRS.
> If a Mexican is caught without ID, and found to be illegal they can also ask who hired him.
Just like I can ask you if your mother has big tits. Asking a question does not mean you will receive an answer.
> Complaining that we'd have to pay for their education, but not complaining about paying for American children's education makes it seem as if you think Americans deserve it more.
I should clarify. I do not approve of English as a Second Language schools being built with my tax money. My child will never be able to use those facilities, and the teachers at those schools typically are paid more than the teachers teaching my own child. I don't think they should receive special treatment because they are born to parents that are illegally in another country.
Anonymous L joined in and replied with this 15 years ago, 5 hours later, 22 hours after the original post[^][v]#28,671
We should adopt Mexico's laws regarding immigration.
trollface
Anonymous J replied with this 15 years ago, 3 hours later, 1 day after the original post[^][v]#29,078
@28,279 (Ph !5pM9NZR/l6)
Since they can already come here, take low paying jobs, and get free education for their kids why not just let them come in legally? They will get citizenship, and be able to take higher paying jobs, and for fear of being audited would avoid the lower paying ones. They would contribute to the ESL programs that they got for free before.
Ph !5pM9NZR/l6 replied with this 15 years ago, 4 hours later, 1 day after the original post[^][v]#29,171
@previous (J)
I can concede to the possibility of granting citizenship to those already here, but flat out opening the border is begging for disaster.
Broseph !!fxnDb+Ve4 replied with this 15 years ago, 32 minutes later, 1 day after the original post[^][v]#29,182
@29,078 (J)
a) Because it's not free if they're now paying taxes for it, b) because coming here legally isn't always an option, sometimes they're simply not allowed here, this @previous (Ph !5pM9NZR/l6) and c) I still see no reason why my tax dollars should go to an ESL program. Also, there's no guarantee that they'd be able to get a better job. If anything, they might have even more trouble finding work, since their employers now have to follow labor laws.
Broseph !!fxnDb+Ve4 double-posted this 15 years ago, 2 minutes later, 1 day after the original post[^][v]#29,183
The real problem here is the Mexican government. Why is their country such a shithole that they all want to come here? Maybe they should work on fixing their own country, instead of abandoning it and bringing all their problems with them.
Also, the U.S. should legalize marijuana to cut off all the funding to the drug cartels down there.
(Edited 20 seconds later.)
Ph !5pM9NZR/l6 replied with this 15 years ago, 2 minutes later, 1 day after the original post[^][v]#29,184
@previous (Broseph !!fxnDb+Ve4) > Also, the U.S. should legalize marijuana to cut off all the funding to the drug cartels down there.
Riiiiiiiiiiiight, well that and fix our own damn economy.
Anonymous M joined in and replied with this 15 years ago, 2 hours later, 1 day after the original post[^][v]#29,321
@27,377 (Broseph !!fxnDb+Ve4)
That is already a law, friend. Jus sanguinis. No matter who you are, if one of your parents is an American citizen, then you too are an American citizen. A friend of mines mother is from Germany. His dad met her when he was stationed over there. She told me that when she found out she was pregnant in 1990, she immediately applied for U.S. citizenship to reduce any troubles she might have entering the country after she gave birth. 1992, about 3 months before his dad was scheduled to end his tour of duty, she was a legal U.S. citizen. The law also applies to U.S. citizens who are abroad.
Anonymous J replied with this 15 years ago, 1 hour later, 1 day after the original post[^][v]#29,362
@29,171 (Ph !5pM9NZR/l6)
Oh, okay. Don't both giving reasons.
> a) Because it's not free if they're now paying taxes for it
Educating their kids isn't free if they aren't paying taxes either. > b) because coming here legally isn't always an option, sometimes they're simply not allowed here
*facepalm* I'm advocating that we change the rules, I never said it was already legal for them to immigrate. > c) I still see no reason why my tax dollars should go to an ESL program.
Good or not, it already does, so why not at least have the parents chip in via taxes? > Also, there's no guarantee that they'd be able to get a better job. If anything, they might have even more trouble finding work, since their employers now have to follow labor laws.
LOL! "We aren't giving you citizenship for your own good". 10/10
Ph !5pM9NZR/l6 replied with this 15 years ago, 2 minutes later, 1 day after the original post[^][v]#29,364
@previous (J)
Common sense. Use it. An open border would be inviting trouble. It's not hard to conclude that conspirators for the downfall of the United States would take full advantage of that oppurtunity.
Anonymous M replied with this 15 years ago, 46 minutes later, 1 day after the original post[^][v]#29,423
Broseph !!fxnDb+Ve4 replied with this 15 years ago, 12 hours later, 1 day after the original post[^][v]#30,327
@29,362 (J)
I also advocate changing the rules, and believe that they should have to pay taxes for the services they get, I'm just not advocating letting anyone who wants to come here, come here. I don't believe in open border bullshit. I believe that anyone who wants to live here needs to do so legally, that it needs to be easier to do so, but not let just anyone do it, and that anyone not here legally needs to get the fuck out and the very least should not be getting any tax-funded service. Also, even if they are paying taxes, I see no reason that the majority of tax payers should have to pay for a minority service. Anyone who wants to live here should assimilate.
Also, I wasn't stating that we should keep them from getting their citizenship for their own good, I was merely stating facts. There is no guarantee for finding a better job, and one of the things that motivates some companies to hire illegals is that they don't have to follow labor laws or pay them minimum wage. If forced to follow labor laws and pay minimum wage, they would most likely hire a legal American rather than an illegal Mexican, and suddenly thousands of illegals can't get the jobs they came here for, so they don't come. Ideally, this ensures that labor laws are enforced, that those who are here are here legally and being treated fairly under the law, and stops motivating illegals from coming here looking for under the table jobs.
Anonymous J replied with this 15 years ago, 3 minutes later, 1 day after the original post[^][v]#30,332
Large terrorist organization with global connections can get ahold of WMDs, keep themselves under the radar, but can't get past the border.
Meanwhile impoverished thousands of impoverished Mexican farmers cross over anyway.