Topic: Prosperity from war
Anonymous A started this discussion 3 weeks ago #137,849
It's funny to see countries like North Korea, Nigeria, and even the poor areas of Russia get a boost economically from all the war going on. It makes you wonder how it'll transform the world if this keeps up. Will more and more countries be incentivized to keep the wars going and possibly escalate them?
Mr. Bloody Lemonade !0JqexkOGBc joined in and replied with this 3 weeks ago, 41 minutes later[^] [v] #1,459,079
Tbh Nigeria’s economy getting a boost is probably a good thing. They’re basically poor because they were colonized by Britain, but they have a population similar in size to Brazil that’s still growing. I’m not going to say they have the best government ever, but much better than Russia.
Mr. Bloody Lemonade !0JqexkOGBc double-posted this 3 weeks ago, 3 minutes later, 44 minutes after the original post[^] [v] #1,459,080
You know, like the fact that they can actually vote from a set of multiple political parties that actually have a decent chance of winning any given election.(Edited 13 seconds later.)
Bringbackbeef joined in and replied with this 3 weeks ago, 1 hour later, 2 hours after the original post[^] [v] #1,459,090
There is no boost.
Anonymous A (OP) replied with this 3 weeks ago, 1 hour later, 3 hours after the original post[^] [v] #1,459,104
North Korea winning because of a war America started is peak irony to be honestAnonymous D joined in and replied with this 3 weeks ago, 46 minutes later, 4 hours after the original post[^] [v] #1,459,110
@1,459,079 (Mr. Bloody Lemonade !0JqexkOGBc)
> Tbh Nigeria’s economy getting a boost is probably a good thing. They’re basically poor because they were colonized by Britain, but they have a population similar in size to Brazil that’s still growing. I’m not going to say they have the best government ever, but much better than Russia.
They’re poor because they’re a dysfunctional, tribal petro-state. I keep telling you to look up petro-state and “Dutch disease.” These one-note economies focus only on exporting oil, and sometimes minerals, with enough money for oligarchs and elites and at the expense of atrophying other sectors.
> Tbh Nigeria’s economy getting a boost is probably a good thing. They’re basically poor because they were colonized by Britain, but they have a population similar in size to Brazil that’s still growing. I’m not going to say they have the best government ever, but much better than Russia.
They’re poor because they’re a dysfunctional, tribal petro-state. I keep telling you to look up petro-state and “Dutch disease.” These one-note economies focus only on exporting oil, and sometimes minerals, with enough money for oligarchs and elites and at the expense of atrophying other sectors.
Mr. Bloody Lemonade !0JqexkOGBc joined in and replied with this 3 weeks ago, 46 minutes later, 5 hours after the original post[^] [v] #1,459,124
@previous (D)
I don’t buy this argument that African countries are poor because they’re corrupt, they’re corrupt because they’re poor. Africa has incredibly diverse cultures but it’s the poorest continent, they’re not the poorest continent because they have anything culturally in common, the one thing they have in common is European colonization. Anything else is just an attempt to shift the blame away from Europe.
I don’t buy this argument that African countries are poor because they’re corrupt, they’re corrupt because they’re poor. Africa has incredibly diverse cultures but it’s the poorest continent, they’re not the poorest continent because they have anything culturally in common, the one thing they have in common is European colonization. Anything else is just an attempt to shift the blame away from Europe.
Mr. Bloody Lemonade !0JqexkOGBc double-posted this 3 weeks ago, 58 seconds later, 5 hours after the original post[^] [v] #1,459,125
I also don’t think that the Nigerian government is actually that dysfunctional. They’re much more democratic than China, but they’re poorer than China. So it doesn’t make sense to blame the government.
Mr. Bloody Lemonade !0JqexkOGBc triple-posted this 3 weeks ago, 3 minutes later, 5 hours after the original post[^] [v] #1,459,126
They’re also not “tribal." Nigeria has a lot of different ethnic groups, but it makes no sense to refer to them as tribes.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_ethnic_groups_in_Nigeria
For example, from that list, most ethnic groups are smaller, but the Igbo ethnic group has 35 million people and the Yoruba ethnic group has 42 million people. Those aren’t "tribes." And Nigeria was more than one country before colonization due to this ethnic diversity, but even pre colonial Nigeria wasn’t tribal. They had nation states with laws, writing, and militaries. It’s a stereotype that Africans are tribal, and in some parts of Africa they really did live in more primitive hunter gatherer societies, but Africa is a large continent, and that isn’t representative of west Africa in particular.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_ethnic_groups_in_Nigeria
For example, from that list, most ethnic groups are smaller, but the Igbo ethnic group has 35 million people and the Yoruba ethnic group has 42 million people. Those aren’t "tribes." And Nigeria was more than one country before colonization due to this ethnic diversity, but even pre colonial Nigeria wasn’t tribal. They had nation states with laws, writing, and militaries. It’s a stereotype that Africans are tribal, and in some parts of Africa they really did live in more primitive hunter gatherer societies, but Africa is a large continent, and that isn’t representative of west Africa in particular.
Mr. Bloody Lemonade !0JqexkOGBc quadruple-posted this 3 weeks ago, 1 minute later, 5 hours after the original post[^] [v] #1,459,127
It’s pretty easy to verify this sort of thing. You can look up traditional west African weapons and see that Nigerians weren’t primitive people with stone spears, they had swords before Europeans arrived. They also had a written history.https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Oba_of_Benin
Mr. Bloody Lemonade !0JqexkOGBc quintuple-posted this 3 weeks ago, 2 minutes later, 5 hours after the original post[^] [v] #1,459,128
The common narrative about the colonization of Africa is incorrect. You can google when gunpowder was first introduced to Nigeria and you can google when Nigeria was colonized by Europeans. Europeans traded with Nigeria before they conquered Nigeria and the introduction of gunpowder isn’t what allowed Europe to colonize Africa, it was actually the Industrial Revolution. Sub Saharan Africans were closer Europeans in terms of their technological advancement than European colonizers wanted the world to believe.Mr. Bloody Lemonade !0JqexkOGBc sextuple-posted this 3 weeks ago, 19 minutes later, 5 hours after the original post[^] [v] #1,459,131
There are also places in Nigeria that are more developed, like Abuja for example. It’s a diverse country. There’s no cultural explanation for why Nigerians can’t build nice cities. They obviously can, the reason it doesn’t look as nice as Europe or the United States is just because they’re poor and lack the resources. But by the time their birth rate declines to a level where they can develop their country without the financial burden of having a large unproductive population of children, they’ll have a pretty big population in a relatively small area. I don’t see why a hundred years from now Lagos couldn’t be like New York or Shanghai.Mr. Bloody Lemonade !0JqexkOGBc septuple-posted this 3 weeks ago, 3 minutes later, 5 hours after the original post[^] [v] #1,459,132
And contrary to stereotypes about black people, Nigerians do value education. Nigerian immigrants in the US are equally as likely to hold graduate degrees as Chinese immigrants.
Anonymous F joined in and replied with this 3 weeks ago, 9 hours later, 15 hours after the original post[^] [v] #1,459,207
@1,459,124 (Mr. Bloody Lemonade !0JqexkOGBc)
> I don’t buy this argument that African countries are poor because they’re corrupt, they’re corrupt because they’re poor. Africa has incredibly diverse cultures but it’s the poorest continent, they’re not the poorest continent because they have anything culturally in common, the one thing they have in common is European colonization. Anything else is just an attempt to shift the blame away from Europe.
I’m not saying they’re backwards. I’m saying their elites are corrupt and siphon the national wealth, ensuring poverty. The country is a racket, like many others. Plus, petro-state = lack of economic diversification.
Take Mexico. It’s an upper middle income country. People are poor because despite world leading businesses like Cemex, there’s insufficient small business and corruption at every turn. Plus corruption that has metastasized into cartel run regions and insane violence. The army could bomb every cartel tomorrow, but won’t.
> I don’t buy this argument that African countries are poor because they’re corrupt, they’re corrupt because they’re poor. Africa has incredibly diverse cultures but it’s the poorest continent, they’re not the poorest continent because they have anything culturally in common, the one thing they have in common is European colonization. Anything else is just an attempt to shift the blame away from Europe.
I’m not saying they’re backwards. I’m saying their elites are corrupt and siphon the national wealth, ensuring poverty. The country is a racket, like many others. Plus, petro-state = lack of economic diversification.
Take Mexico. It’s an upper middle income country. People are poor because despite world leading businesses like Cemex, there’s insufficient small business and corruption at every turn. Plus corruption that has metastasized into cartel run regions and insane violence. The army could bomb every cartel tomorrow, but won’t.
Anonymous F double-posted this 3 weeks ago, 4 minutes later, 15 hours after the original post[^] [v] #1,459,208
You can speculate or you can read Oxfam, World Bank reports, UN reports. The research is out there. Low investment in education and poor governance mixed with reliance on oil exports leads to insufficient human capital. The northern Muslims typically govern the country. The most productive and educated people are the Christian Yoruba and they often leave. Throw in grinding ethnic conflicts:
https://theconversation.com/nigeria-has-a-high-poverty-rate-what-this-has-to-do-with-ethnic-conflicts-270649
Nigeria has been independent for 66 years. At some point post-colonial becomes an excuse.
https://theconversation.com/nigeria-has-a-high-poverty-rate-what-this-has-to-do-with-ethnic-conflicts-270649
Nigeria has been independent for 66 years. At some point post-colonial becomes an excuse.
Mr. Bloody Lemonade !0JqexkOGBc joined in and replied with this 3 weeks ago, 2 hours later, 17 hours after the original post[^] [v] #1,459,219
@previous (F)
Tbh I don’t vibe with blaming poor people for being poor like it’s a moral failure. Plenty of Nigerians are hardworking people. The way you’re framing it doesn’t make any sense, colonialism isn’t being used as "an excuse," nobody wants to be poor. Nigerians aren’t poor because they don’t feel like being rich, and they don’t owe the world being rich. My problem with this sort of mentality you’re expressing is that it values people based on their material success, which to me is backwards. Human lives don’t matter because of how much stuff those human lives own.
Tbh I don’t vibe with blaming poor people for being poor like it’s a moral failure. Plenty of Nigerians are hardworking people. The way you’re framing it doesn’t make any sense, colonialism isn’t being used as "an excuse," nobody wants to be poor. Nigerians aren’t poor because they don’t feel like being rich, and they don’t owe the world being rich. My problem with this sort of mentality you’re expressing is that it values people based on their material success, which to me is backwards. Human lives don’t matter because of how much stuff those human lives own.
Mr. Bloody Lemonade !0JqexkOGBc double-posted this 3 weeks ago, 2 minutes later, 17 hours after the original post[^] [v] #1,459,220
And 66 years by the way, is not a long time. Compare it to the United States, the US was founded in 1776. The confederacy surrendered in 1865. That’s 89 years. When the United States was 66 years old, we still had slavery. Nigeria is doing better than the United States was doing when we were 66 years old when it comes to democracy and human rights. It’s a dumb thing to say, "oh they were only colonized 66 years ago, why aren’t they rich now?"
(Edited 51 seconds later.)
Mr. Bloody Lemonade !0JqexkOGBc triple-posted this 3 weeks ago, 5 minutes later, 17 hours after the original post[^] [v] #1,459,221
And this is also completely ignoring demographics. Countries usually don’t develop while they have high birth rates. Chinese people have one birth per woman on average, Americans have 1.7 births per woman on average, Nigerians have 4.5 births per woman on average with a population of 200 million people in an area that’s 10x smaller than the US.
(Edited 1 minute later.)
Mr. Bloody Lemonade !0JqexkOGBc quadruple-posted this 3 weeks ago, 3 minutes later, 17 hours after the original post[^] [v] #1,459,222
And even acting like pointing out colonialism negatively impacted Nigeria is somehow just an excuse for Nigerians to develop their country:
1. That’s stupid, it’s history, you can’t just not talk about history because it offends you.
2. There’s stuff in Nigeria that’s improved a lot since it was colonized by Britain. It’s just that Britain ruined Nigeria to such an extent that even with all the work Nigerians have done to build their country, it doesn’t look like a lot because you don’t see where they started from.
1. That’s stupid, it’s history, you can’t just not talk about history because it offends you.
2. There’s stuff in Nigeria that’s improved a lot since it was colonized by Britain. It’s just that Britain ruined Nigeria to such an extent that even with all the work Nigerians have done to build their country, it doesn’t look like a lot because you don’t see where they started from.
Mr. Bloody Lemonade !0JqexkOGBc quintuple-posted this 3 weeks ago, 50 seconds later, 17 hours after the original post[^] [v] #1,459,223
For instance: infant mortality has been consistently going down decade after decade.Mr. Bloody Lemonade !0JqexkOGBc sextuple-posted this 3 weeks ago, 54 seconds later, 17 hours after the original post[^] [v] #1,459,224
The cities have gotten a lot larger over time due to increased urbanization and decreased infant mortality ratesMr. Bloody Lemonade !0JqexkOGBc septuple-posted this 3 weeks ago, 1 minute later, 17 hours after the original post[^] [v] #1,459,225
And their GDP, yeah, they’re poor, but compare it to when they were colonized. They’re objectively doing much better than they were doing under British rule.(Edited 30 seconds later.)
Mr. Bloody Lemonade !0JqexkOGBc octuple-posted this 3 weeks ago, 2 minutes later, 17 hours after the original post[^] [v] #1,459,226
It’s not an "excuse" it’s just an accurate description of what happened, Europe is the majority of the reason for everything bad happening in Africa today because almost everything going wrong in Africa is a byproduct of Africa being poor, and Africa still is poor because African birth rates stayed higher than Asia because Africa was more underpopulated than Asia and because Europeans colonized Africa. It’s just an accurate description of what happened.
Mr. Bloody Lemonade !0JqexkOGBc nonuple-posted this 3 weeks ago, 11 minutes later, 17 hours after the original post[^] [v] #1,459,227
All I’m saying is if you use your brain, it should be obvious that the fact that Nigeria is poor isn’t inherently a failure of Nigerians. What country can you name with 2/3rds the population of the United States that’s 10x smaller by land area where everybody has almost 5 children on average that only became independent 60 years ago that is a rich country? You can’t name it because there are no examples of rich countries that exist under those circumstances. If you take China for instance, there’s an argument that could be made their economy developed so fast because their birth rate fell so fast, but there are some ethnical (also long term mathematical) problems with that and I don’t think Africans should copy that.
(Edited 2 minutes later.)