Topic: Who were the reactionaries in Marxist ideology?
Anonymous A started this discussion 3 weeks ago #136,413
The reactionaries were the liberals and the fascists. Liberals become fascist because they do not proactively construct a society, they have a hands-off attitude, let people do what they want as long as it doesn't hurt others.
But when certain factions society make themselves a problem (marxists emphasize the capital class), the liberal can only react. They never banned that faction from operating or existing in the first place, so they need to react to threats as they happen.
When the threats become too threatening, a liberal reacts by militarizing and targetting that specific group.
The reason liberals do not create a society where dangerous elements are solved before they begin is that they operate reactively not proactively. That's also why it always decays into fascism. They change when they are forced to, and theydon't have time to plan a new society from the ground up, so they keep much of it the same and just put more resources into police or military to counter the threat.
A revolutionary vanguard party tries to be proactive and change society fundamentally. There are other non-marxist proactive political movements.
But when certain factions society make themselves a problem (marxists emphasize the capital class), the liberal can only react. They never banned that faction from operating or existing in the first place, so they need to react to threats as they happen.
When the threats become too threatening, a liberal reacts by militarizing and targetting that specific group.
The reason liberals do not create a society where dangerous elements are solved before they begin is that they operate reactively not proactively. That's also why it always decays into fascism. They change when they are forced to, and theydon't have time to plan a new society from the ground up, so they keep much of it the same and just put more resources into police or military to counter the threat.
A revolutionary vanguard party tries to be proactive and change society fundamentally. There are other non-marxist proactive political movements.
Mr. Bloody Lemonade !0JqexkOGBc joined in and replied with this 3 weeks ago, 31 minutes later[^] [v] #1,448,055
Good ideas don’t naturally win out over bad ideas.
Anonymous A (OP) replied with this 3 weeks ago, 18 minutes later, 49 minutes after the original post[^] [v] #1,448,076
@previous (Mr. Bloody Lemonade !0JqexkOGBc)
Not when people decide ideas don't matter, and just act on feelings instead.
Not when people decide ideas don't matter, and just act on feelings instead.
Mr. Bloody Lemonade !0JqexkOGBc joined in and replied with this 3 weeks ago, 51 minutes later, 1 hour after the original post[^] [v] #1,448,137
Anonymous A (OP) replied with this 3 weeks ago, 31 minutes later, 2 hours after the original post[^] [v] #1,448,141
@previous (Mr. Bloody Lemonade !0JqexkOGBc)
So is rape and murder and shitting in holes. If society can overcome those, it should be able to talk about ideas that they disagree with.
Schools could teach logic, we can shame those that dismiss the results of the process when they don't get what they want.
It's not that different from any other problem civilization has overcome. People are trained, resources are allocated, and consequences are set.
So is rape and murder and shitting in holes. If society can overcome those, it should be able to talk about ideas that they disagree with.
Schools could teach logic, we can shame those that dismiss the results of the process when they don't get what they want.
It's not that different from any other problem civilization has overcome. People are trained, resources are allocated, and consequences are set.
Mr. Bloody Lemonade !0JqexkOGBc joined in and replied with this 3 weeks ago, 9 hours later, 11 hours after the original post[^] [v] #1,448,251
@previous (A)
There are two sides to that, one I agree with and one I don’t. I think most people are smart enough if you educate them they can make rational decisions. You can’t help some people though.
There are two sides to that, one I agree with and one I don’t. I think most people are smart enough if you educate them they can make rational decisions. You can’t help some people though.
Mr. Bloody Lemonade !0JqexkOGBc double-posted this 3 weeks ago, 2 minutes later, 11 hours after the original post[^] [v] #1,448,252
Some people are just ignorant, and it would do them a lot of good to know more about the world. But some people genuinely lack the capacity to think critically, and some people are genuinely evil. Not everyone has the same cognitive capacity. The ability to feel empathy is part of your cognition. Emotions aren’t inherently bad, the ability to feel shame, regret, remorse, guilt, etc. are important. People who lack those emotions are incredibly dangerous. And obviously it’s a spectrum, but education won’t ever fix that because it’s a structural difference in their brain.
Mr. Bloody Lemonade !0JqexkOGBc triple-posted this 3 weeks ago, 6 minutes later, 11 hours after the original post[^] [v] #1,448,253
I also think one issue with logic is that, logic is sort of useless on a couple of levels, on one level, logic isn’t really a complete description of how the world works. True and false don’t actually exist, they’re abstract concepts humans made up to be able to reason about the world, in reality, some things are more complicated than binary true and false. There are multiple consistent systems of logic, some of which don’t use two states, it’s possible to create a logical theory that uses more than two states. Not everything in our world is discrete. Then the other issue is logic doesn’t really give you any direction. If you accept certain things are true and then use logic to build up from first principles, you can come to conclusions about things, but it’s not possible to use logic to say something is good or bad without first asserting that something else is good or bad. Logic can help you achieve a goal, but logic alone can’t help you determine your goals. Two people can have different feelings about morality or different goals and both use logic to come to completely different conclusions about what the best course of action is.
Mr. Bloody Lemonade !0JqexkOGBc quadruple-posted this 3 weeks ago, 1 minute later, 11 hours after the original post[^] [v] #1,448,254
Then logic also isn’t actually that complicated. You only need one operation. You can either use NAND or NOR and build any other logical operator from just NAND or just NOR. Logic doesn’t actually require intelligence, it can be executed mechanically.
Mr. Bloody Lemonade !0JqexkOGBc quintuple-posted this 3 weeks ago, 2 minutes later, 11 hours after the original post[^] [v] #1,448,255
Even in computers, people say at the most fundamental level they use 0 and 1, but in actuality, voltages aren’t discrete. Logic is just an abstraction of reality that’s incredibly useful, but it’s also not reality itself.Mr. Bloody Lemonade !0JqexkOGBc sextuple-posted this 3 weeks ago, 4 minutes later, 11 hours after the original post[^] [v] #1,448,256
The assumption that there’s just true and just false, if you think about it, that’s a little bit arbitrary. It’s a function of language, not reality itself. You can come up with a system of logic that uses three or more states. In fuzzy logic you can even have an infinite number of states between 0 and 1.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Three-valued_logic
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fuzzy_logic
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Three-valued_logic
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fuzzy_logic
(Edited 1 minute later.)
Mr. Bloody Lemonade !0JqexkOGBc septuple-posted this 3 weeks ago, 10 minutes later, 11 hours after the original post[^] [v] #1,448,258
@1,448,255 (Mr. Bloody Lemonade !0JqexkOGBc)
The other issue with that is it loses information. You can’t store every single possible value between 0 and 1 with a finite number of two-state values. If you add 0.1 + 0.2 in a lot of programming languages you get 0.30000000000000004 instead of 0.3 because it’s only an approximation.
The other issue with that is it loses information. You can’t store every single possible value between 0 and 1 with a finite number of two-state values. If you add 0.1 + 0.2 in a lot of programming languages you get 0.30000000000000004 instead of 0.3 because it’s only an approximation.
Mr. Bloody Lemonade !0JqexkOGBc octuple-posted this 3 weeks ago, 6 minutes later, 12 hours after the original post[^] [v] #1,448,260
And you actually don’t have to make computers that way.
Mr Bloody Lemonade !Uvm54ORbmo joined in and replied with this 3 weeks ago, 1 hour later, 13 hours after the original post[^] [v] #1,448,270
I just like getting plowed in the ass.
Anonymous F joined in and replied with this 3 weeks ago, 59 minutes later, 14 hours after the original post[^] [v] #1,448,276
@1,448,055 (Mr. Bloody Lemonade !0JqexkOGBc)
> Good ideas don’t naturally win out over bad ideas.
That was the power of Nazism and Communism. Lack of reason and debate, the ability to shout others down, and zero boundaries when it came to withholding food or inflicting violence. Neither of them produced anything memorable beyond suffering and murder.
> Good ideas don’t naturally win out over bad ideas.
That was the power of Nazism and Communism. Lack of reason and debate, the ability to shout others down, and zero boundaries when it came to withholding food or inflicting violence. Neither of them produced anything memorable beyond suffering and murder.
Mr. Bloody Lemonade !0JqexkOGBc joined in and replied with this 3 weeks ago, 6 hours later, 21 hours after the original post[^] [v] #1,448,382
@previous (F)
Well, to be fair, communists invented space travel. I think it’s a bit disingenuous even if you don’t like them to pretend they didn’t have any accomplishments.
Well, to be fair, communists invented space travel. I think it’s a bit disingenuous even if you don’t like them to pretend they didn’t have any accomplishments.
Mr. Bloody Lemonade !0JqexkOGBc double-posted this 3 weeks ago, 1 minute later, 21 hours after the original post[^] [v] #1,448,384
You know, first man in space, first woman in space, first satellite in orbit, first probe to land in the moon, the only country to land on Venus. Which country did all those things?