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Anonymous A started this discussion 3 weeks ago#132,176
I recently came across some old, dead forum threads asking things like “Why don’t Western web novels get much attention?” or “Why are English WEBTOONs so bad?” I remember asking myself similar questions years ago, then forgetting about them until those posts resurfaced. While some of the replies made decent points, I ultimately disagree with most of their conclusions.
In my view, Western webtoons and manga largely fail because Western creators- by which I mainly mean those from the U.S. and U.K. who try to frame their own culture through manhwa or manga aesthetics rather than building stories that grow naturally out of it. The result often feels like imitation rather than adaptation.
Take the U.S., for example. As blunt as this sounds, I struggle to take most American-made manga seriously. Too often, they feel like poor attempts to recreate Dragon Ball Z, One Piece or whatever mainstream hype manga is hot at the moment without understanding what actually made those works succeed in the first place. Either the art suffers, the story does or, more often than not, both.
Subject matter is another major issue, and arguably the biggest obstacle. Looking at WEBTOON’s catalog makes this clear. The platform is split between Originals and Canvas. Originals are curated and supported by WEBTOON, with editorial help, promotion, monetization features, and consistent update schedules. Unsurprisingly, these are predominantly created by Korean authors.
Canvas titles, on the other hand, are self-published and lack those advantages. The difference in polish, genre focus, and overall quality is immediately noticeable. Much of Canvas is dominated by LGBTQ stories, romance, and slice-of-life comics, with comparatively few action or adventure series—and even fewer that execute those genres well.
That gap highlights the core problem: Western creators often copy the surface-level style of manga and manhwa, but miss the cultural foundations, narrative discipline, and genre expectations that give those works their impact.
On a grand scale they dont enjoy much on a much broader scale because the listed subject matter is mainly for certain niche group(I guess thats why the same people would read something like lore olympus are more likely to play a game like ff14 considering there's some overlap gay/trans and romance.)
Anonymous A (OP) double-posted this 3 weeks ago, 21 minutes later[^][v]#1,411,964
A sidebar: I kind of wish we had a comiket here in the U.S. (No comic-con doesn't count for me as they're just consoomer slop and dont share that same spirit of focusing on self-published works with all sorts of weird shit.)
Problem is if we end up having something like here then in a very short time it'll either be overrun by liberals or conservatives.
Either side would ruin the whole thing. Like I dont want to walk in and its either:
"stupid niggers here the 69000 reasons as to why you're a genetically inferior sub species as its been scientifically proven."
Or
"We’re not here to platform harmful ideas. This is a safe space that exists to uplift black/brown voices that have historically been silenced as well as those were marginalized and systemically oppressed."
Also, between dehumanizing people and acting like a psychopath hating everyone and bending over backwards to be empathetic to the point of the annoyance, one of those two things is obviously way worse than the other.
Some black guy double-posted this 3 weeks ago, 3 minutes later, 1 hour after the original post[^][v]#1,411,966
Also, westernized manga, is just called comic books.
This already exists. The problem is western cartoons exist and western comics exist, but the thing that makes anime anime is that it’s Asian. So if you’re trying to make western anime, at that point you’re just making western cartoons with an Asian art style, which will simultaneously fail at feeling completely Asian and fail at feeling completely western.
It’s like if the Spanish wanted to make a katana that looks like a rapier, but it’s still a katana. At that point you’ve ever created something entirely new.
Anonymous A (OP) replied with this 3 weeks ago, 1 hour later, 2 hours after the original post[^][v]#1,411,972
@1,411,965 (Some black guy) > Also, between dehumanizing people and acting like a psychopath hating everyone and bending over backwards to be empathetic to the point of the annoyance, one of those two things is obviously way worse than the other.
I get your point, but I don’t think either is “obviously worse.” Extreme empathy can be just as exploitable as extreme hostility both feed off each other.
While excessive hostility is obviously harmful, extreme over-empathetic behavior in order to avoid offending anyone can also be easily manipulated or abused.
To me, both extremes are part of the same cycle: one provokes the other, and both distort genuine interaction. Framing one as “obviously worse” misses how they feed off each other.
Some black guy double-posted this 3 weeks ago, 3 minutes later, 2 hours after the original post[^][v]#1,411,974
Also, if I’m being honest, the thing about racists is if you’re black, there’s absolutely nothing you can ever do to gain their respect and they’ll always stand in your way and stab you in the back the first chance they get every single time. I get the whole free speech argument, but my real opinion is that if someone considers my existence to be incompatible with their existence, it’s just a question of who kills the other person first.
> Also, westernized manga, is just called comic books.
Yes.
> This already exists. The problem is western cartoons exist and western comics exist.
that's not the problem. In fact that's not a problem . they can and should exist.
> but the thing that makes anime anime is that it’s Asian. So if you’re trying to make western anime, at that point you’re just making western cartoons with an Asian art style, which will simultaneously fail at feeling completely Asian and fail at feeling completely western. > It’s like if the Spanish wanted to make a katana that looks like a rapier, but it’s still a katana. At that point you’ve ever created something entirely new.
Yes. on this idea I agree with. and that's why something like whytmanga/Saturday AM doesn't work(though I applaud them for trying nonetheless) but something like ATLA or LoK work or even Boondocks works and is good.
Some black guy double-posted this 3 weeks ago, 2 minutes later, 2 hours after the original post[^][v]#1,411,977
@1,411,975 (A)
Of course it’s true that there will be some animes that will be produced by westerners that will be successful, but at the same time, it’s always going to be dominated by Asians. Every group that creates some form of art always ends up dominating like 80% of it because it becomes part of the cultural aesthetic consumers desire from that group and associate with it.
Anonymous A (OP) replied with this 3 weeks ago, 9 minutes later, 2 hours after the original post[^][v]#1,411,978
@1,411,974 (Some black guy) > I disagree. Being over-empathetic hasn’t ever led to a genocide, racism has led to multiple wars and genocides. > Also, if I’m being honest, the thing about racists is if you’re black, there’s absolutely nothing you can ever do to gain their respect and they’ll always stand in your way and stab you in the back the first chance they get every single time. I get the whole free speech argument, but my real opinion is that if someone considers my existence to be incompatible with their existence, it’s just a question of who kills the other person first.
I get your point about real-world oppression and violence.
My focus here is on cycles of behavior in creative or social communities, not on life-or-death scenarios. In that context, I still think over-empathetic responses can be exploited, just like hostility can.
Like conventions are an example that I think about in that context because in conventions you meet all sorts of people and generally you learn about them and their position from brief small talk.
You can pick up some clues like "Oh yeah based on their microaggression one can surmise he/she is a closeted racist and bigot".
The same is true for someone is extremely liberal. a fan casually jokes about a minor trope in a comic. An attendee notices and immediately assumes harm was caused even though no one was actually offended and starts pressuring the panelist or the organizers to apologize, change the content, enforce rules, etc. at that point they're just as toxic even if they believe they're in the right.
> Of course it’s true that there will be some animes that will be produced by westerners that will be successful, but at the same time, it’s always going to be dominated by Asians. Every group that creates some form of art always ends up dominating like 80% of it because it becomes part of the cultural aesthetic consumers desire from that group and associate with it.
Yeah. Which is why I'd like western comics to be reformed or revitalized to some degree. Right now its just insular? or stale?—I don't have the proper word to attach to the feeling atm so forgive me but for now "insular" will have to do.
Some black guy replied with this 3 weeks ago, 1 minute later, 2 hours after the original post[^][v]#1,411,980
@1,411,978 (A)
I hear what you’re saying, but art is expression. All expression in a way, is a means to some end. Otherwise, communication is pointless. If people have a right to create art, people also need to have the equal right to call out art if they believe that the art is propagandizing an agenda that is detrimental to the cohesion of society.
Anonymous A (OP) replied with this 3 weeks ago, 5 minutes later, 2 hours after the original post[^][v]#1,411,981
Or perhaps its my wish that Western society would change how it treats comics and indie comics/animation. In Korea and Japan, animation and comics are mainstream, respected industries—people of all ages read and watch them everywhere. even the indie scene in those countries have a strong backing whether its from a big corp or a massive fan coalition.
In the West, by contrast, comics are still largely seen as niche, juvenile, or purely commercial, and that cultural gap affects both production and reception.
> I hear what you’re saying, but art is expression. All expression in a way, is a means to some end. Otherwise, communication is pointless. If people have a right to create art, people also need to have the equal right to call out art if they believe that the art is propagandizing an agenda that is detrimental to the cohesion of society.
Some black guy replied with this 3 weeks ago, 5 minutes later, 2 hours after the original post[^][v]#1,411,983
@1,411,981 (A)
Some social norms are very important, a lot are just arbitrary. Like women should have long hair and men should have short hair as a standard for example. Things change over time.
Some black guy double-posted this 3 weeks ago, 9 minutes later, 3 hours after the original post[^][v]#1,411,985
Things can even go in cycles. For example, the ancient Romans encouraged men to have short hair, then after the fall of the Roman Empire, long hair was considered as a sign of wealth, so it wasn’t uncommon for kings to have long hair, then after the world wars hair became shorter again, then during Vietnam, it became more popular as a counter-culture thing, then it became less common again. Comics were obviously popular at some point in time because all those superhero movies started out as comics, and those are still very popular.
Some black guy triple-posted this 3 weeks ago, 6 minutes later, 3 hours after the original post[^][v]#1,411,987
Honestly, I think the two reasons why are probably because Americans associate being into comics with being into superhero’s and Americans associate that with being nerdy, and people associate being interested in Asian cultures with being nerdy, and that could actually be kinda racist tbh. Like there isn’t a word with a negative connotation for somebody who likes western cartoons for example. Although, I don’t think American culture has really solved the right wing Nazi fetishization of East Asian culture / the association of East Asian culture with being nerdy and all the different social and cultural paradoxes that causes, and I don’t really think that American culture is close to solving that either. So idk.
Some black guy quadruple-posted this 3 weeks ago, 5 minutes later, 3 hours after the original post[^][v]#1,411,988
There’s this idea that Asians are nerds and therefore they’re better than Africans because that means they’re smarter, but there’s also this idea that Asian males are asexual because they’re nerds, so being interested in Asian culture is cringy or socially awkward. Which is paradoxical because it’s actually not clear what society actually desires there, it’s like a catch 22.
Some black guy quintuple-posted this 3 weeks ago, 2 minutes later, 3 hours after the original post[^][v]#1,411,989
Because if you’re smart, you’re a nerd, that makes you asexual. If you’re not smart, you’re not considered asexual, but then black men are considered dangerous. But obviously somebody could be smart, and be attractive at the same time. So I think the key would be creating a new ideal social archetype that doesn’t have that paradox.
TheNigguhWithinU joined in and replied with this 3 weeks ago, 1 hour later, 4 hours after the original post[^][v]#1,411,993
western webcomics in general suck nigguh anus. the very creators are more often than anything defective mockeries of humanity. Everybody is familiar with loss, and to an extent Ctrl+Alt+Del summarized western comics goodly, but the story of ErfWorld is also a good encapsulation of the format.
Anonymous E joined in and replied with this 3 weeks ago, 1 hour later, 6 hours after the original post[^][v]#1,412,054
@previous (TheNigguhWithinU)
i wasnt familiar with CAD or loss. the only webcomic i heard of is homestuck but i never read it because it came off as very "gay coded". especially with the fandom that arised from it. then maybe ive become a millennial boomer and have zero taste.
Thats because the western world is competley dumbed down and infantlized. when it comes to that. we priotize politics and meandering bullshit instead of producing works of entertaining content that we published amongst oursevles, support and consume.
all westerners do now is make podcasts to talk politics, shitposts and partake in irreverant humor for 4 fucking hours. its why we resorted to ai to draw or consume K-pop/drama and webtoons or watch anime snd read manga.
and when it comes to entertainment media its all gay/lesbian/trans, reboots/sequels or spend time online to partake in this..whatever minichan is
theres no in between. we're sadly depressed jaded adults with deadend IT jobs, divorces, rampant alcohol abuse mixed with hard drugs. all while being under the rule of oligarchs, cryto-tech billionaires, old money with strong and overly annoying conservatives and the equally insufferable liberals peddling their bullshit just as much as the next guy.
you already knew the answer. you were just hoping for a different one thats more optimistic.