Minichan

Topic: Doli Incapax. This is the British law where a 10 year old or under cannot be tried for the crimes...

Tekamine !AnRbswGQv. started this discussion 15 years ago #1,267

...they commit. If this is the case, what should happen if a 9 year old, that is fully aware of their actions (i.e, know the right from wrong, what's acceptable and what isn't), commits an atrocious act such as murder. Who should be made accountable?

Nexus !jNexusRe/. joined in and replied with this 15 years ago, 54 seconds later[^] [v] #24,392

The prime minister.

Anonymous C joined in and replied with this 15 years ago, 48 seconds later, 1 minute after the original post[^] [v] #24,398

Under the law, the child cannot fully understand the action.

Meta !PARAdoxiHw joined in and replied with this 15 years ago, 14 seconds later, 1 minute after the original post[^] [v] #24,401

The queen

Nega !34Kas0OdzM joined in and replied with this 15 years ago, 19 seconds later, 2 minutes after the original post[^] [v] #24,403

I read that this nasty little loophole has been exploited several times by Muslim extremists... mostly to get rid of daughters who shamed their families

Anonymous F joined in and replied with this 15 years ago, 42 seconds later, 2 minutes after the original post[^] [v] #24,407

They will face trial after their 10th birthday.

Killer Lettuce !!iNo3FkiZx joined in and replied with this 15 years ago, 15 seconds later, 3 minutes after the original post[^] [v] #24,409

They should. They did it, knowing right from wrong even.

A prison sentence might not be appropriate, perhaps some kind of intensive therapy or care? They might still be redeemable at that stage.

Leo Vegas !gNoGoD5HzQ joined in and replied with this 15 years ago, 30 seconds later, 3 minutes after the original post[^] [v] #24,411

@OP

Nobody is held accountable. That is if the murder occurred under the right circumstances. Obviously a parent would be expected to intervene if their 9yo and another child got into a fight in there presence but if it occurred some place else, it would be unreasonable to hold someone accountable. What reasonable person would expect a child to kill someone?

Tekamine !AnRbswGQv. (OP) replied with this 15 years ago, 1 second later, 3 minutes after the original post[^] [v] #24,413

@24,392 (Nexus !jNexusRe/.)
@24,401 (Meta !PARAdoxiHw)

Serious law talk here. Your Mickey Mouse laws need not apply here.

Killer Lettuce !!iNo3FkiZx replied with this 15 years ago, 47 seconds later, 4 minutes after the original post[^] [v] #24,419

@24,392 (Nexus !jNexusRe/.)
@24,401 (Meta !PARAdoxiHw)
Treason. Off with their heads!

Leo Vegas !gNoGoD5HzQ replied with this 15 years ago, 6 seconds later, 4 minutes after the original post[^] [v] #24,420

@OP

Does the UK have mens rea and mens actus as requirements for a crime?

Tekamine !AnRbswGQv. (OP) replied with this 15 years ago, 23 seconds later, 4 minutes after the original post[^] [v] #24,424

@24,411 (Leo Vegas !gNoGoD5HzQ)

Right, this is the opinion of the person I'm having this conversation with. Should the parents, if they're responsible for the child, be accountable for their actions if the child cannot be tried?

Killer Lettuce !!iNo3FkiZx replied with this 15 years ago, 16 seconds later, 5 minutes after the original post[^] [v] #24,427

@24,420 (Leo Vegas !gNoGoD5HzQ)
What's that?

Tekamine !AnRbswGQv. (OP) replied with this 15 years ago, 6 seconds later, 5 minutes after the original post[^] [v] #24,429

@24,420 (Leo Vegas !gNoGoD5HzQ)
Yes.

Killer Lettuce !!iNo3FkiZx replied with this 15 years ago, 2 minutes later, 7 minutes after the original post[^] [v] #24,442

@24,424 (Tekamine !AnRbswGQv.)
No. If they've in no way caused the crime then it's not really their fault.

But I suppose they legally are anyway? :/

(Edited 3 minutes later.)

Leo Vegas !gNoGoD5HzQ replied with this 15 years ago, 16 seconds later, 7 minutes after the original post[^] [v] #24,444

@24,424 (Tekamine !AnRbswGQv.)

> Right, this is the opinion of the person I'm having this conversation with. Should the parents, if they're responsible for the child, be accountable for their actions if the child cannot be tried?

What would be accomplished by holding the parents responsible? If the parents are investigated and found to be fit parents who did not encourage the child to kill then I think it would be appropriate but in the case where a child just snaps (and it has happened before though I do not know from memory if one as young as 9 has) then I do not think anything would be accomplished by punishing the parents. It is really something that I do not believe should be handled with a broad stroke.

Leo Vegas !gNoGoD5HzQ double-posted this 15 years ago, 1 minute later, 9 minutes after the original post[^] [v] #24,451

@24,427 (Killer Lettuce !!iNo3FkiZx)
mens rea is the guilty mind and mens actus is the guilty act. If a person commits a crime without knowing that what they are doing is wrong then they have committed no crime if they think about committing a crime but do not follow through with the act then no crime has been committed. That is the basic explanation. Those two conditions must be met for a crime to have occurred.

Nega !34Kas0OdzM replied with this 15 years ago, 1 minute later, 10 minutes after the original post[^] [v] #24,455

@24,424 (Tekamine !AnRbswGQv.)

> Right, this is the opinion of the person I'm having this conversation with. Should the parents, if they're responsible for the child, be accountable for their actions if the child cannot be tried?

You'll get into an endless loop of evasions, unprovable claims and faggotry with a nice helping of media hysteria. <_<
The problem is that a child has more than two authority figures, so pinning responsibility on them just like that is asking for trouble.

Tekamine !AnRbswGQv. (OP) replied with this 15 years ago, 52 seconds later, 11 minutes after the original post[^] [v] #24,460

@24,442 (Killer Lettuce !!iNo3FkiZx)
Legally to the point where their child commits a crime. Yet the family can get prosecuted if the child skips school.

@24,444 (Leo Vegas !gNoGoD5HzQ)
I know what you mean, and don't get me wrong, I do agree. But surely it's classed as abuse to let a child get into a mindset that it wants to commit an atrocious attack like murder. You're responsible for that child and it's upbringing?

Tekamine !AnRbswGQv. (OP) double-posted this 15 years ago, 1 minute later, 12 minutes after the original post[^] [v] #24,463

@24,455 (Nega !34Kas0OdzM)

Human rights and all that?

Anonymous I joined in and replied with this 15 years ago, 17 seconds later, 12 minutes after the original post[^] [v] #24,464

@24,427 (Killer Lettuce !!iNo3FkiZx)
Guilty mind and guilty act.

(Edited 10 seconds later.)

Nega !34Kas0OdzM replied with this 15 years ago, 1 minute later, 14 minutes after the original post[^] [v] #24,469

@24,451 (Leo Vegas !gNoGoD5HzQ)
Which is a legal/philosophical (the two overlap quite a bit) construct necessary to explain why B who hands a poisoned plate of soup to A given to him by C is not guilty of murder, even though B was the one completing the action that lead to A's death.

Killer Lettuce !!iNo3FkiZx replied with this 15 years ago, 1 minute later, 15 minutes after the original post[^] [v] #24,474

@24,460 (Tekamine !AnRbswGQv.)
The parents aren't 100% responsible for a child's upbringing and resultant mentality. There will be other influences on them that the parents simply can't control.

Tekamine !AnRbswGQv. (OP) replied with this 15 years ago, 2 minutes later, 18 minutes after the original post[^] [v] #24,482

@previous (Killer Lettuce !!iNo3FkiZx)

Yes, but the parents have legal responsibility for the child.

Leo Vegas !gNoGoD5HzQ replied with this 15 years ago, 10 seconds later, 18 minutes after the original post[^] [v] #24,484

@24,460 (Tekamine !AnRbswGQv.)
> I know what you mean, and don't get me wrong, I do agree. But surely it's classed as abuse to let a child get into a mindset that it wants to commit an atrocious attack like murder. You're responsible for that child and it's upbringing?

Good point but at what point can it be argued that a person lets their child get into a mindset that you described? Parents have a hard time understanding their children under normal circumstances most of the time. Any parent will tell you that it is a full time job. If a child is OBVIOUSLY being steered in the direction to kill someone then that is different but then again how is that defined? Also, if we let the state mandate decisions parents make in the lives of their children do we not open a door that could lead down an undesired path? It is a bit like nailing jello to a wall when you really start to delve into the details.

Leo Vegas !gNoGoD5HzQ double-posted this 15 years ago, 50 seconds later, 19 minutes after the original post[^] [v] #24,486

@24,469 (Nega !34Kas0OdzM)

> Which is a legal/philosophical (the two overlap quite a bit) construct necessary to explain why B who hands a poisoned plate of soup to A given to him by C is not guilty of murder, even though B was the one completing the action that lead to A's death.

Exactly.

Nega !34Kas0OdzM replied with this 15 years ago, 1 minute later, 21 minutes after the original post[^] [v] #24,494

@24,463 (Tekamine !AnRbswGQv.)

> Human rights and all that?

Maybe, but it could also devolve into a debate about school in general, and the one the child went to in particular, which will require a truckload new witnesses and "experts" to be summoned.
See where this is going?

(Edited 8 minutes later.)

Tekamine !AnRbswGQv. (OP) replied with this 15 years ago, 52 seconds later, 22 minutes after the original post[^] [v] #24,499

@24,484 (Leo Vegas !gNoGoD5HzQ)

Ok, lets say the child is from a broken home. No father, promiscuous mother, lots of men in and out of their lives. Abuse to themselves. Them abusing animals. Not so much being told to kill, just making the child have no social norms and boundaries. What then?

Killer Lettuce !!iNo3FkiZx replied with this 15 years ago, 19 seconds later, 22 minutes after the original post[^] [v] #24,500

@24,482 (Tekamine !AnRbswGQv.)
The parents can't control or keep watch over them all of the time.

The legality of it isn't always right. The parents shouldn't get the blame if they couldn't have done anything to stop it.

Nega !34Kas0OdzM replied with this 15 years ago, 16 seconds later, 22 minutes after the original post[^] [v] #24,501

@24,486 (Leo Vegas !gNoGoD5HzQ)
Naturally.
I am always right unless proven wrong, which doesn't happen as we already clarified at the beginning of this unecessarily long and convoluted sentence.

(Edited 1 minute later.)

Nega !34Kas0OdzM double-posted this 15 years ago, 1 minute later, 23 minutes after the original post[^] [v] #24,507

@24,500 (Killer Lettuce !!iNo3FkiZx)
> The legality of it isn't always right. The parents shouldn't get the blame if they couldn't have done anything to stop it.

Which isn't something you can easily prove or disprove...

Tekamine !AnRbswGQv. (OP) replied with this 15 years ago, 1 minute later, 25 minutes after the original post[^] [v] #24,509

@24,500 (Killer Lettuce !!iNo3FkiZx)

The example i've been using this evening is the Jamie Bulger case...

(Edited 15 seconds later.)

Leo Vegas !gNoGoD5HzQ replied with this 15 years ago, 10 seconds later, 25 minutes after the original post[^] [v] #24,510

@24,499 (Tekamine !AnRbswGQv.)

> Ok, lets say the child is from a broken home. No father, promiscuous mother, lots of men in and out of their lives. Abuse to themselves. Them abusing animals. Not so much being told to kill, just making the child have no social norms and boundaries. What then?

This is a situation A LOT of people have been through and some end up in the various prisons/death rows here in America. It usually takes them until they reach adulthood to begin to repeat the cycle they were apart of as children. In this case I would think it would be necessary for the child to be taken out of the home and the parent(s) to face abuse charges. All too often the wrong people have children and have then in large numbers. I am a big supporter of people having to take tests before they are a allowed to reproduce.

totoforhire !!Phkn/3Gic joined in and replied with this 15 years ago, 11 seconds later, 25 minutes after the original post[^] [v] #24,511

Check out Mary bell.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mary_Bell

Killer Lettuce !!iNo3FkiZx replied with this 15 years ago, 49 seconds later, 26 minutes after the original post[^] [v] #24,513

@24,507 (Nega !34Kas0OdzM)
I know. It would just be better if it was a bit more flexible, and could fit with the context of what happened and the evidence available.

Killer Lettuce !!iNo3FkiZx double-posted this 15 years ago, 2 minutes later, 28 minutes after the original post[^] [v] #24,519

@24,509 (Tekamine !AnRbswGQv.)
I had no idea who that is...

Nega !34Kas0OdzM replied with this 15 years ago, 1 second later, 28 minutes after the original post[^] [v] #24,520

@24,513 (Killer Lettuce !!iNo3FkiZx)

> I know. It would just be better if it was a bit more flexible, and could fit with the context of what happened and the evidence available.

Which evidence?
trollface.jpg

Tekamine !AnRbswGQv. (OP) replied with this 15 years ago, 24 seconds later, 29 minutes after the original post[^] [v] #24,522

@24,510 (Leo Vegas !gNoGoD5HzQ)
This is what i'm talking about. Yes they should be charged and children taken into care, but what happens if the child commits these acts. Is it punishment enough to have your kids taken off you?

And yes, people should have to take tests to prove what type of people they will be to a child.

Tekamine !AnRbswGQv. (OP) double-posted this 15 years ago, 47 seconds later, 30 minutes after the original post[^] [v] #24,528

@24,519 (Killer Lettuce !!iNo3FkiZx)

Wow, can't believe someone from the UK hasn't heard of that poor lad.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Murder_of_James_Bulger

totoforhire !!Phkn/3Gic replied with this 15 years ago, 1 minute later, 31 minutes after the original post[^] [v] #24,530

@24,519 (Killer Lettuce !!iNo3FkiZx)
Two ten year olds kidnapped and beat to death a four year old.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Murder_of_James_Bulger

Tekamine !AnRbswGQv. (OP) replied with this 15 years ago, 57 seconds later, 32 minutes after the original post[^] [v] #24,533

@previous (totoforhire !!Phkn/3Gic)
I live 3 miles from there :/

Killer Lettuce !!iNo3FkiZx replied with this 15 years ago, 21 seconds later, 32 minutes after the original post[^] [v] #24,535

@24,522 (Tekamine !AnRbswGQv.)
Mandatory parent tests? So if you fail you can't have a kid?

I like the idea (bad parents couldn't have bad kids, ect.) but it seems a little oppressive.

@24,520 (Nega !34Kas0OdzM)
What? :S

(Edited 46 seconds later.)

Leo Vegas !gNoGoD5HzQ replied with this 15 years ago, 21 seconds later, 33 minutes after the original post[^] [v] #24,538

@24,522 (Tekamine !AnRbswGQv.)
Take the kids and sterilize the parents.

Killer Lettuce !!iNo3FkiZx replied with this 15 years ago, 1 minute later, 34 minutes after the original post[^] [v] #24,540

@24,528 (Tekamine !AnRbswGQv.)
Wasn't born then. :P

Tekamine !AnRbswGQv. (OP) replied with this 15 years ago, 29 seconds later, 35 minutes after the original post[^] [v] #24,544

@24,535 (Killer Lettuce !!iNo3FkiZx)
Only for people with abhorrent abusive tendancies.

@24,538 (Leo Vegas !gNoGoD5HzQ)
Wishful thinking eh?

Killer Lettuce !!iNo3FkiZx replied with this 15 years ago, 1 minute later, 36 minutes after the original post[^] [v] #24,546

@previous (Tekamine !AnRbswGQv.)
Oh, well in that case I'd be all for it.

Tekamine !AnRbswGQv. (OP) replied with this 15 years ago, 1 minute later, 37 minutes after the original post[^] [v] #24,549

@24,540 (Killer Lettuce !!iNo3FkiZx)

No, but last year, one of the killers was in the news John Venables for CP collecting.

Nega !34Kas0OdzM replied with this 15 years ago, 1 minute later, 38 minutes after the original post[^] [v] #24,555

@24,535 (Killer Lettuce !!iNo3FkiZx)
You heard me.
@24,544 (Tekamine !AnRbswGQv.)
That would so not work out... :|

Tekamine !AnRbswGQv. (OP) replied with this 15 years ago, 1 minute later, 40 minutes after the original post[^] [v] #24,564

@previous (Nega !34Kas0OdzM)

No I know it wouldn't. It would never be able to be enforced.

Killer Lettuce !!iNo3FkiZx replied with this 15 years ago, 26 seconds later, 40 minutes after the original post[^] [v] #24,567

@24,555 (Nega !34Kas0OdzM)
I don't get it.

You're scaring me Nega.

totoforhire !!Phkn/3Gic replied with this 15 years ago, 3 seconds later, 40 minutes after the original post[^] [v] #24,568

@24,533 (Tekamine !AnRbswGQv.)
Cool, you should go on a murder day tour.

Nega !34Kas0OdzM replied with this 15 years ago, 1 minute later, 42 minutes after the original post[^] [v] #24,574

@24,567 (Killer Lettuce !!iNo3FkiZx)
The Nega was born out of man's fear, and fear he shall inspire as long as he walks the earth.

Nega !34Kas0OdzM double-posted this 15 years ago, 46 seconds later, 42 minutes after the original post[^] [v] #24,576

@24,564 (Tekamine !AnRbswGQv.)
It would crash before the government voted on it...

Killer Lettuce !!iNo3FkiZx replied with this 15 years ago, 16 seconds later, 43 minutes after the original post[^] [v] #24,577

@24,574 (Nega !34Kas0OdzM)
Time marches on without regard.

Tekamine !AnRbswGQv. (OP) replied with this 15 years ago, 1 minute later, 44 minutes after the original post[^] [v] #24,583

@24,568 (totoforhire !!Phkn/3Gic)

I've been to the shopping centre plenty of times and the place he was found, is near a football stadium.

totoforhire !!Phkn/3Gic replied with this 15 years ago, 2 minutes later, 47 minutes after the original post[^] [v] #24,598

@previous (Tekamine !AnRbswGQv.)
Next time, will you please take some pictures? Also, have you ever heard anyone in your area speak about this crime?

Leo Vegas !gNoGoD5HzQ replied with this 15 years ago, 2 minutes later, 50 minutes after the original post[^] [v] #24,606

@24,583 (Tekamine !AnRbswGQv.)
The death of that child was so horrific. Those boys should have been buried alive or be forced to witness their mothers being burned to death. It is harsh and not realistic but it would make me feel better.

(Edited 9 seconds later.)

Nega !34Kas0OdzM replied with this 15 years ago, 3 minutes later, 53 minutes after the original post[^] [v] #24,623

@previous (Leo Vegas !gNoGoD5HzQ)
Interesting how Justice and Retribution can be the one and the same in one instant and two completely different pairs of shoes the next.

/is in rambling mode tonight.

Tekamine !AnRbswGQv. (OP) replied with this 15 years ago, 1 minute later, 55 minutes after the original post[^] [v] #24,630

@24,606 (Leo Vegas !gNoGoD5HzQ)
I agree, it was. You have the same mindset as most people around here.
The two bastards have had two identity changes at the expense of the British tax payer.

totoforhire !!Phkn/3Gic replied with this 15 years ago, 22 seconds later, 55 minutes after the original post[^] [v] #24,632

@24,606 (Leo Vegas !gNoGoD5HzQ)
They threw paint in his eyes and molested him before bludgeoning him to death.

Nega !34Kas0OdzM replied with this 15 years ago, 27 seconds later, 56 minutes after the original post[^] [v] #24,634

@24,630 (Tekamine !AnRbswGQv.)

> I agree, it was. You have the same mindset as most people around here.
> The two bastards have had two identity changes at the expense of the British tax payer.

Oh. Shit.

Tekamine !AnRbswGQv. (OP) replied with this 15 years ago, 1 minute later, 57 minutes after the original post[^] [v] #24,638

@24,632 (totoforhire !!Phkn/3Gic)

And stuck batteries up his arse before tying him to the railway.

psychopath !PSYCHOhc32 joined in and replied with this 15 years ago, 2 minutes later, 1 hour after the original post[^] [v] #24,649

Doli Incapax? More like Loli Incapax.

Tekamine !AnRbswGQv. (OP) replied with this 15 years ago, 1 minute later, 1 hour after the original post[^] [v] #24,655

@previous (psychopath !PSYCHOhc32)

Too intelligent a conversation for you?

Nega !34Kas0OdzM replied with this 15 years ago, 3 minutes later, 1 hour after the original post[^] [v] #24,662

@24,649 (psychopath !PSYCHOhc32)

> Doli Incapax? More like Loli Incapax.

...just shut up, will you? ;-)

psychopath !PSYCHOhc32 replied with this 15 years ago, 3 minutes later, 1 hour after the original post[^] [v] #24,675

@24,655 (Tekamine !AnRbswGQv.)
Jesus, I was only making a joke.

Tekamine !AnRbswGQv. (OP) replied with this 15 years ago, 1 minute later, 1 hour after the original post[^] [v] #24,680

@previous (psychopath !PSYCHOhc32)

> Jesus, I was only making a joke.

No mate, my name is Ben.

Nega !34Kas0OdzM replied with this 15 years ago, 43 seconds later, 1 hour after the original post[^] [v] #24,682

@24,675 (psychopath !PSYCHOhc32)
A poor one, especially given the subject and your general Monomania when it comes to this topic, nyaa~

psychopath !PSYCHOhc32 replied with this 15 years ago, 9 minutes later, 1 hour after the original post[^] [v] #24,719

@previous (Nega !34Kas0OdzM)
Okay, well I believe the murderers should be tried and punished, maybe not as severely, like halved sentence.

totoforhire !!Phkn/3Gic replied with this 15 years ago, 16 minutes later, 1 hour after the original post[^] [v] #24,780

@24,638 (Tekamine !AnRbswGQv.)
This is one of my favorite murder cases.

Tekamine !AnRbswGQv. joined in and replied with this 15 years ago, 4 minutes later, 1 hour after the original post[^] [v] #24,794

@previous (totoforhire !!Phkn/3Gic)
I've seen the place he was found, well near it. It was on a train line literally 100yards from a police station

totoforhire !!Phkn/3Gic replied with this 15 years ago, 2 minutes later, 1 hour after the original post[^] [v] #24,806

@previous (Tekamine !AnRbswGQv.)
Please take some pics for me!

Tekamine !AnRbswGQv. replied with this 15 years ago, 5 minutes later, 1 hour after the original post[^] [v] #24,822

@previous (totoforhire !!Phkn/3Gic)
Its inaccessible and you wouldn't really see much. Plus, it's a very taboo subject in this city.

totoforhire !!Phkn/3Gic replied with this 15 years ago, 1 minute later, 1 hour after the original post[^] [v] #24,825

@previous (Tekamine !AnRbswGQv.)
I would imagine that it would be. That's what makes it fun.

Tekamine !AnRbswGQv. replied with this 15 years ago, 2 minutes later, 1 hour after the original post[^] [v] #24,827

@previous (totoforhire !!Phkn/3Gic)

If you say so, not really my thing. But next time I'm at that shopping centre or near the place, I'll take a photo and upload for you.

The Truth !!vSp31CfSr joined in and replied with this 15 years ago, 3 seconds later, 1 hour after the original post[^] [v] #24,828

Convincting the loli doesn't sound like a good idea.

totoforhire !!Phkn/3Gic replied with this 15 years ago, 2 minutes later, 1 hour after the original post[^] [v] #24,834

@previous (The Truth !!vSp31CfSr)
These are boys that we're taking about.
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